Fluent in 3 Months?

[kidvisions]

Hi everyone,

Do you know Benny Lewis? The guy who claims that you can learn a language in just 3 months.
I wanted to know your opinions about this.
I personally don't believe that it's possible to become fluent in a language in just 3 months. Acquiring a language is not just learning to express yourself in the language. There are more aspects to it, morphology, syntax, pragmatics, etc... It's not just vocabulary and sentences that you learn and practice.
I think it would be interesting to test polyglots and see if they really acquired the languages and not simply learned to speak it. I think that these are two different things.

[Corybobory]

I think if you have enough prior knowledge and it's not a language that's wildly different from your own, you could learn a language in three months if you were immersed in it totally I bet, like if you speak Italian and you get plunked down in a Spanish household for three months, and you already speak a couple other languages so you're good at picking them up.

[kidvisions]

I think if you have enough prior knowledge and it's not a language that's wildly different from your own, you could learn a language in three months if you were immersed in it totally I bet, like if you speak Italian and you get plunked down in a Spanish household for three months, and you already speak a couple other languages so you're good at picking them up.

Maybe, but that's not necessarily true. Also, some polyglots claim that they are fluent in more than 6 languages and they sometimes post videos of them speaking them all. How do we know that they are really fluent and that they didn't just learn these expressions by heart.

[nalyd]

I've heard of Benny Lewis. It seems to me that his definition of fluency is the ability to speak a language conversationally. He doesn't claim that one must know the syntax, morphology, phonology, etc to know a language. If one had to know those things to know a language, then most people don't really even know their own language; they just speak it.

I think someone can achieve conversational fluency in 3 months. At least enough to be understood. For one to actually be able to discuss any topic in that language, including the grammar itself, one will have to take much longer though. Most second language learners will never achieve the fluency of a native speaker anyway.

Benny Lewis and other language hackers seem to me to try to provide an easy way out. Learning a language is hard for most people and most people do not have the time, energy, or motivation to learn one. By giving them an easy way out, one can feel satisfied by their achievement of learning a language. They haven't really learned a language though. They have only learned enough to be understood in simply conversations with sympathetic native speakers who are willing to diligently attempt to understand what they are saying.

The best way to learn a language is to understand the grammar, have a large mental dictionary, and be aware of regional dialects, idioms, slangs, and so on. It's far more difficult, but it is the only way to completely learn a language.

[kidvisions]

I've heard of Benny Lewis. It seems to me that his definition of fluency is the ability to speak a language conversationally. He doesn't claim that one must know the syntax, morphology, phonology, etc to know a language. If one had to know those things to know a language, then most people don't really even know their own language; they just speak it.

I think someone can achieve conversational fluency in 3 months. At least enough to be understood. For one to actually be able to discuss any topic in that language, including the grammar itself, one will have to take much longer though. Most second language learners will never achieve the fluency of a native speaker anyway.

Benny Lewis and other language hackers seem to me to try to provide an easy way out. Learning a language is hard for most people and most people do not have the time, energy, or motivation to learn one. By giving them an easy way out, one can feel satisfied by their achievement of learning a language. They haven't really learned a language though. They have only learned enough to be understood in simply conversations with sympathetic native speakers who are willing to diligently attempt to understand what they are saying.

The best way to learn a language is to understand the grammar, have a large mental dictionary, and be aware of regional dialects, idioms, slangs, and so on. It's far more difficult, but it is the only way to completely learn a language.

We do not need to know syntax, morphology, phonology but we certainly need to acquire them. We might not be aware of that but we do acquire them when we acquire a language.
You said: "  Most second language learners will never achieve the fluency of a native speaker anyway". How do you know that? French is my second language, English was the third language I learned and if you hear me speak I don't think you would notice that it's not my first language. I know a lot of people like that.
As for "an easy way out", I don't think that what Benny is doing is an "easy way out" either, since most people will not be able to spend 3 entire months learning a language. I think these three months would be a bad investment since the learner can not be proficient in a language in just 3 months. Besides, If someone really wants to learn a language they should not be looking for an easy way out.

[nalyd]

I agree the morphology, syntax, etc must be acquired, at least subconsciously, but need not be consciously memorized. I was saying that if one had to learn them, rather than acquire, then most speakers would not really know their own language.

Notice that I said most second language learners, not all. I am inductively reasoning that most second language learners do not achieve a native speakers proficiency. Most speakers of a second language that I have come across are not able to speak the language like a native.

I think it's great you can speak your second and third languages like a native speaker. That's something I wish to do with the languages I'm learning. As for you knowing many people like that, that is great for them. Our experience must be different because I've come across more poor speakers of a second language than proficient ones.

I think Benny Lewis is trying to give an easy way out by reducing the amount of time it takes for one to be proficient and by his method of "speaking it from day one". These, I think, make one who wishes to learn a second language feel that it is easier to learn, than learning by  many hours studying the grammar and memorizing words.

Benny does seem to be proficient in his languages, or at least close to it, and as far as I know he works as a translator. But his method comes across as an easy way out for many people. That's how I see it.

[kidvisions]

I agree the morphology, syntax, etc must be acquired, at least subconsciously, but need not be consciously memorized. I was saying that if one had to learn them, rather than acquire, then most speakers would not really know their own language.

Notice that I said most second language learners, not all. I am inductively reasoning that most second language learners do not achieve a native speakers proficiency. Most speakers of a second language that I have come across are not able to speak the language like a native.

I think it's great you can speak your second and third languages like a native speaker. That's something I wish to do with the languages I'm learning. As for you knowing many people like that, that is great for them. Our experience must be different because I've come across more poor speakers of a second language than proficient ones.

I think Benny Lewis is trying to give an easy way out by reducing the amount of time it takes for one to be proficient and by his method of "speaking it from day one". These, I think, make one who wishes to learn a second language feel that it is easier to learn, than learning by  many hours studying the grammar and memorizing words.

Benny does seem to be proficient in his languages, or at least close to it, and as far as I know he works as a translator. But his method comes across as an easy way out for many people. That's how I see it.

As a Tunisian, I have learned Tunisian Arabic as my first language, Modern Standard Arabic and French at school and English in high school. Many Tunisians are like me, at least fluent in Tunisian Arabic + either French or English depending on their education (some schools focus a lot on French, and not enough on English or MSA). Many Tunisians who went to school are bilingual. ( or trilingual if you consider Tunisian Arabic and MSA as two different languages.) We also can study a fourth language in high school and at university. To me, the idea of being proficient in a language in just three months just doesnt make sense. I have listened to Benny speak Arabic and French and he seemed like someone who is struggeling. If he does not work on his language skills further and stops at that level I am not sure how he could work as a translator. Unless he translates only into English. There are so many nuances that are only possible to grasp after a long learning process. There is also the cultural aspect. One can only be really fluent in a language if they manage to think in the language, and within the cultural framework of that language.

[nalyd]

It sounds like Tunisia has a better language learning system in their schooling than from where i am in Canada. In public school we learn English and a little French (not much more than greeting yourself and various common nouns). There is a high immigration rate in Canada and most of the immigrants cannot speak the language too well.

As for Benny Lewis speaking Arabic, since you are a native speaker, I will take your word for it that he is struggling to speak it . He does claim to be a freelance translator but how good his translating is is something I'm not aware of. Also, if he is struggling at Arabic and French, he is probably struggling with his other languages.

I would agree that there are many nuances that take time to learn for every language. How do you define the cultural framework of a language though? Is it idioms, slang, etc or is it something else? I'm curious to know how you define that.