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Linguist's Lounge / Re: Which language would be the best lingua franca?
« Last post by Daniel on March 26, 2022, 08:18:04 PM »
Quote
I believe that English is an enforced popularity contest. With America and Britain being economical superpowers, many countries in the world are forced to use English as the main business language.
That may have been the case a few decades ago, but now English is used by more non-native speakers than native speakers. Business, along with tourism, etc., is conducted around the world in English every day between millions of people who are not native speakers of English. It's the first global lingua franca.

There's nothing better about English than any other language, but at the first language in that position, it's taking on its own role beyond national/political functions. In some ways there's no need to replace it, simply because there is any language in that position. One effect will be that English will become less and less centralized around the US and the UK. Consider India, for example, but also various other places.


As for the original question about "best" lingua franca, I don't think that has an answer. Any language could be a lingua franca, and would be adapted (e.g. with vocabulary) to fit the role, but really, there are no linguistic properties that make one language better than another.

(Sure, you can imagine what properties a constructed language would have to offer, but the fundamental flaw is that basically no one speaks them, so you'd be starting from nothing to get it to catch on. And even if that worked, what would actually happen is that, say everyone started speaking Esperanto, it would become a natural language through usage. It would take on the same irregularities, idiosyncrasies and other features that make natural languages "imperfect", because that's what happens, naturally, through usage. Of course there are a few things we could do to improve the practicality of languages, like making teaching resources widely available, using an orthography that is easier to learn that the irregular spelling of English or the very large character inventory of Chinese, but plenty of languages already have that in place. The fact that the "biggest" languages don't also indicates that it really isn't so crucial to the "success" of a language. Those imperfect writing systems work fine and don't actually pose a practical limitation to the usage of those languages. In the end, there's nothing to "fix".)

In short, it doesn't matter what language is the lingua franca, but given that English is in place globally, it will probably stick around for a long time, regardless of geopolitical situations. Aside from the accidents of history, it could be any other language too. There aren't any linguistic reasons for the success of English.
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Linguist's Lounge / Re: Getting Started in Studying Linguistics Academically.
« Last post by panini on March 26, 2022, 11:24:14 AM »
You have a misguided view of publications. Google Scholar and Jstor are not journal publishers, they are "distributors". Instead you should look for journals, which is where articles actually appear. So you want journals on language acquisitions, pragmatics, and semantics. You can Google "Language Acquisition Journal" to get some journal names, and of course you will find that this is a very broad area, covering ESL technology, child language acquisition, and second-language acquisition in general. Let's say you mean "Child language acquisition", then you could look for Journal of Child Language. Then there would be a separate hunt for you to find a provider that you will accept. Jstor is probably the biggest provider, and the best from the publisher's perspective, but that's up to you. Similarly you can Google "Pragmatics journal" and get the names of some pragmatics journals, such as Journal of Pragmatics. That happens to be published by Elsevier, which is a widely hated publisher, so you'll have to give some consideration to whether you are willing to read a journal put out by a publisher that is boycotted in some circles. Then a Google search for semantics journals will produce many results including Journal of Semantics.

There are other venues for finding subject-area material, for example Linguistic Inquiry or Linguistics and Philosophy, which probably would not show up in the Google search. However, if you pick about 3 articles in an area and look at the references, you will see what other journals are out there and cited. At some point, you will probably encounter a great journal and a really crappy journal, and the question will arise "Which of these people should I believe". Not all journals are equally good. Eventually, you will have to quality-evaluate journals. There is an up-vote system, known as Impact Factor, which gives you a number for certain journals – the higher the number, the better. There are many problems with the computation of IF, but as long as you stick to a single domain (e.g. "formal semantics"), it gives you a reasonable rough ordering of journals (it is invalid to compare across areas, such as semantics vs. child language acquisition, since IF is based on patterns of citation, and the conventions for citations are not comparable across those disciplines).

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Linguist's Lounge / Re: Which language would be the best lingua franca?
« Last post by Jono5 on March 26, 2022, 09:49:31 AM »
I believe that English is an enforced popularity contest. With America and Britain being economical superpowers, many countries in the world are forced to use English as the main business language.

I have studied grammar aspects of many modern languages in the past 10 years, and i personally find English to be a very abstract and inaccurate language. For everyday communication, English sits with any other language in the world. As a business language, it depends on the nature of the business being discussed and the vocabulary needed to converse to others. Approaching vocabulary, English easily has the competency to be an extremely accurate language, but this would mean that one needs to learn a very sophisticated vocabulary: a vocabulary which is unnatural to everyday communication in English and would be difficult to understand by everyday speakers of English.

One of many examples to note the English word 'love'. Love has many aspects in English: the love of friends, the love of family, the love of hobbies/interests; the love of an intimate relationship and many other aspects. In other modern languages, these aspects would have their own lexicon for these specific purposes. 'Love' is just one of many other words that contain many aspects in the English language, and only context can make this clear. However, context isn't always clear in the English language. The problem concerning context of course exists in every language, but some languages deal with it better, far better, than the English language.

Which language could replace English as a lingua franca? Who knows. History shows the height and falls other lingua francas like Classical Greek/Latin, French, ecclesial latin, Classical Chinese, Ancient Egyptian and so many others. English at the moment is the cool, hip language the world wants to learn, that people believe will give them a better quality of life, a language that makes money, art and entertainment. But so does Hindi, Chinese Mandarin, Modern Standard Arabic and Russian (regrettably at the moment).

I'm not a scholar/expert on this matter, so I'm not telling anyone how to think or feel, but I thought I'd share my opinion without debate.
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Linguist's Lounge / Getting Started in Studying Linguistics Academically.
« Last post by Jono5 on March 26, 2022, 09:27:21 AM »
Hey everyone,

I just finished undergraduate studies in Creative Writing. I want to progress onto postgraduate study in linguistics, but first i'm taking a gap year to build my own research base. I also have a view to go to doctoral level if possible, so I'd like to take my time and explore the different aspects of linguistics in hopes to find a specialism. At the moment, I'm interested in language acquisition and prag/semantics.

I'd like to know if anyone knows where i can find the latest academic journals/articles/research in any of these three areas? It probably sounds odd for me to ask since I finished undergraduate level, but my degree was highly creative and only ever focused on critical reflections rather than any other type of academic writing. The university would only ever direct me to Jstor which I very much detest. I can never find anything useful on there even after being instructed how to use it. Google scholar is just the same.

So apart from Jstor and Google Scholar, do any of you have suggestions of any reliable sources for language acquisition and prag/semantic studies? I'd be very grateful if anyone can advise me.
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Linguistics Links / The Tenses of Verbs, Hans Reichenbach
« Last post by waive15 on March 22, 2022, 10:34:07 PM »
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Phonetics and Phonology / Re: Chaos IPA and application
« Last post by Daniel on March 22, 2022, 07:00:19 PM »
Good points. Only comment:
Quote
it is a social construct developed over the centuries (well, it has been a work in progress for over a century)... It is still a puzzle why they use separate symbols θ ð for dental fricatives but diacritic modifications on t̪ d̪ for dental stops.
For any kind of inconsistency, the reason is almost always history and tradition. Simply put, the dental fricatives are found in historically important/familiar languages (from the perspective of traditional linguistics in Europe) like English and Greek (and in fact already had symbols ready to go), so they got their own symbols. At some point, available symbols started running out, and for less typical contrasts, newly "discovered" in lesser known languages (to linguists, not to their own speakers, of course), they sometimes used diacritics. The IPA does have a Eurocentric bias, although that's not always consistent either. And today I think the IPA does a reasonable job of adding new symbols for other newly discovered sounds, but actually correcting inconsistencies would mean violating the tradition, e.g. of using diacritics for dental stops.
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Phonetics and Phonology / Re: Chaos IPA and application
« Last post by panini on March 22, 2022, 06:16:16 PM »
It is difficult to figure out the "theory" of the IPA, because it is a social construct developed over the centuries (well, it has been a work in progress for over a century), and it does not have any absolutely immutable principles (though changing the principle is similar to changing the US Constitution). One premise that seems to be the most true is that it is a system for notating segments (sounds). In the chart, half of the sub-charts are symbols for segments (consonants and vowels), and half are "diacritics" that describe general phonetic properties that can apply to a segment, for example [a] versus [ã].

On the one hand, IPA explicitly eschews diacritics (hence a separate symbol is required for [ʃ] as opposed to putting hacek on [ s ] to give [š]). Yet it also embraces diacriticky symbols, such as apostrophe for ejectives. The principle is that diacritics are acceptable when they represent general phonetic parameters of segment production. The dot-diacritic for retroflex and hacek for alveopalatal aren't general, they describe just one opposition (between alveolar and retroflex, or alveopalatal which they call postalveolar). It is still a puzzle why they use separate symbols θ ð for dental fricatives but diacritic modifications on t̪ d̪ for dental stops.

There is a tendency but not a strict principle that when a certain sound is phonemically contrastive in some language, there should be a separate symbol for it. If a phonetic property, on the other hand, is "general" to some level (intuitively, "it would be ridiculous to invent 20 new symbols in order to avoid using a diacritic"), one just uses the diacritic.

Theoretically, one could dispense with many of the IPA vowel letters, by using a diacritic. For example, we could get rid of [ɪ] and just write [i̞] (i with tack-down), and [ɛ] could be likewise notated as [e] with tack-down (which means "lowered"). Since that vowel difference is phonemic in many languages, there is a pressure to not use a diacritic. The phonetic fact that you noted between British vs. American English is not a phonemic contrast within a language. Therefore, to describe that difference, one can't call on different primary symbols, you have to appeal to diacritics. These same diacritics (raised, lowered, retracted tongue root, less round, more round) are used for more precise phonetic descriptions which don't rise to phonemic status within a single language / dialect, especially for describing contextual variants ("the vowel is slightly raised before velar consonants").

IPA is designed to make it possible to be more precise than "what is phonemic", but IMO it should be seen as a system for phonemic writing that has been augmented with other descriptive resources so that you can be a little bit more precise about phonetic properties.

IPA letters are quite vague at the level of phonemic contrast, which is why there are a dozen IPA-consistent transcriptions of English vowels as in "say", "go". Ideally, you use the symbol that is "closest" to the particular sound of the language. That means: you have to refer to the standard. https://www.internationalphoneticassociation.org/IPAcharts/inter_chart_2018/IPA_2018.html is the standard. It would be an interesting exercise to collect recordings of words by speakers of different dialects and then attempt to characterize the phonetic differences. I think British English has a lower, backer, rounder vowel that in the American pronunciation. You can use diacritics to describe that, or you can write the British vowel as [ɒ].

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Phonetics and Phonology / Re: Chaos IPA and application
« Last post by Daniel on March 22, 2022, 04:28:39 PM »
Quote
IPA system which is supposed to have a symbol for each sound
That's not quite correct, or at least needs to be explained more precisely.

The IPA is not a system of sounds, but a system of phoneme categories. Accents may still differ below the level of phonemic contrasts. IPA also has some additional ways to specify sub-phonemic differences (usually with diacritics). The basic symbols are used for broad transcriptions (indicating phonemes), while the more precise usage (of additional symbols and diacritics) can be used for narrow transcriptions, trying to represent specific pronunciations (e.g. by different speakers of the same language).

The other factor is that for some or most languages, including English, there is a more or less standard way of using IPA to represent it. And for consistency, it might be used with the same symbols even with different accents. In some ways, it's similar to an orthography, more than a recording.

One important point to understand about IPA is that it really is not about representing actual sounds, but about indicating different phonemes, so that you are able to understand that contrasts in the language. Since de Sausurre (and others) we have known that languages are primarily systems of constrasts, rather than systems of absolute values: sounds don't exist on their own, but only by being different from other sounds. In that way, in principle, we could use any symbols we want for phonemes, although of course something approximately similar to the sound itself is useful.

Another perspective on this question is that this is also why it's difficult to reform English orthography: we would lose the common spelling across dialects. So we have to find a balance that works best. You will find that this differs in different sources. Since you're talking about English learning materials, this is probably designed to help you understand all dialects, rather than just knowing the specific sounds of one.
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Phonetics and Phonology / Chaos IPA and application
« Last post by La Tiche de Inglé on March 22, 2022, 07:50:14 AM »
There is an IPA system which is supposed to have a symbol for each sound. When studying British and American English, I see that the same symbol is assigned to different sounds, depending on the accent.

I am watching videos by Rachel's English on Youtube (American accent). I find that [ɔ:], differs from the sound taught in the British accent. She is not alone in doing this, there is confusion everywhere.

According to this chart: https://www.phonemicchart.com/
There are 4 sounds that I would like to analyse:
 /ɔ/ (AmE -oo- "door")
 /ɔ:/ (BrE -oo- "door") - This sound is more closed and longer
 /ɑ/ (AmE -a- "far")
 /ɑ:/ (BrE -a- "far") - more closed than the above and longer, like an American "AW".

For example, if I had to transcribe the word "awesome" phonetically, I'd write:
 BrE we say --  /ˈɔːs(ə)m/
 AmE -- /ˈɑ:s(ə)m/

However,
1) many dictionaries (especially American ones) use another type of transcription (merriam-webster for example). It seems to my that Americans either decide not to use IPA or they dont know how... not sure. I’m lost.
2) This is what Cambridge says about the AmE and BrE pronunciation of awesome https://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/english-spanish/awesome
The 2 dots ( : ) make the sound longer (although, in the examples of the 4 sounds above, I also detect more closure in vowel sounds when placing the dots).
I believe this isn't the case, though. It's a whole different sound when pronouncing AWESOME in BrE and in AmE.
If we check here https://www.ipachart.com/ and click on /ɔ/, we can clearly hear that this phoneme does not represent any sound in the American version of "awesome".
3) Rachel distinguishes between /ɔ/ (as in the American AW) and /ɑ/ (as in "Father" AmE).
The vowel sounds in AWESOME and in FATHER may have a slight, but almost unrecognizable difference, depending on each individual PERSON and their way of speaking. But, what I don't understand is how sounds were assigned to symbols that already exist and have totally different pronunciation.
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Outside of the box / Re: Croatian toponyms
« Last post by panini on March 17, 2022, 10:14:50 AM »
I'm not familiar enough with that approach to comment. This is one of the reasons why I've recommended working in an established, well-known methodology.
I must admit I do not understand what is the point of trying to achieve something using an "established" methodology. The fact is, if some methodology has been tried again and again, every time resulting in a failure, isn't that a sign that you should try something at least slightly different, rather than that you should once again try the same thing and hoping to get a better result?
There is an established methodology for determining "how much stuff you have", for example sand, water, meat etc. It is based on a physical theory, involving force, mass, gravity and so on. The reason for using that methodology is that it works. There is an alternative methodology where you use sticks of fixed length and lay the sticks by the stuff (measure the volume), that also works, but it tells you something totally different (volume, not weight). There is a fundamental connection between method and theory.

An "established methodology" should be used until it is proven that an alternative methodology gives better results. That is really the only scientifically legitimate reason for following method A versus B. There is an article of faith in following a methodology based on popularity – you are assuming that other practitioners are not deluding themselves. It is very well established in linguistics that we are capable of large-scale self-delusion. Therefore, you have to decide whether your alternative methodology is actually superior to the standard method. You have to be willing to accept being ignored if you follow an unpopular method.

Daniel recites the standard reasons for following the standard method, and which is correct-ish, except that you have to first prioritize the objective vs. the popular. It's okay to be unpopular and right. But it is a really bad idea to be unpopular and wrong.

Traditional is not intrinsically better than innovative, nor is the opposite better. What is better is – the correct. What you should be interested in is a demonstration that your conclusion is correct. Scientists ignore arbitrary conjectures, and they pay attention to conclusions that are supported by an integration of reason and observation. What reason can you give to support the claim that this root is "phonosemantic". Where are the observations, and what is the logic that connects those observations to the phonosemantic conclusion?


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