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21
Outside of the box / Re: "Russian" orphografy
« Last post by waive15 on September 03, 2021, 01:35:45 AM »



     -->
direction of reading in English, Russian, ...




     -->
direction of the letter


     <--
direction of the letter


     -I-
symmetrical letter



===



A, B, C, D, E, F, G, H, I, J, K, L, M, N, O, P, Q, R, S, T, U, V, W, X, Y, Z    (26 letters)

a, b, c, d, e, f, g, h, i, j, k, l, m, n, o, p, q, r, s, t, u, v, w, x, y, z


---


 -->

B, C, D, E, F, G, K, L, N(?), P, Q, R, S(?), Z(?)

b, c, e, f, h, k, m, n, p, r, s(?), t, u(?), z(?)

---

 <--

J

a, d, g, j, q, y

---

 -I-

A, H, I, M, O, T, U, V, W, X, Y

i, l, o, v, w, x



===



А, Б, В, Г, Д, Е, Ё, Ж, З, И, Й, К, Л, М, Н, О, П, Р, С, Т, У, Ф, Х, Ц, Ч, Ш, Щ, Ъ, Ы, Ь, Э, Ю, Я    (33 letters)

а, б, в, г, д, е, ё, ж, з, и, й, к, л, м, н, о, п, р, с, т, у, ф, х, ц, ч, ш, щ, ъ, ы, ь, э, ю, я   


---

 -->

Б, В, Г, Е, Ё, И(?), Й(?), К, Р, С, Ц, Щ, Ы, Ь, Ю

б, в, г, е, ё, и(?), й(?), к, р, с, ц, щ, ы, ь, ю

---

 <--

Д, З, Л, У, Ч, Ъ, Э, Я

а, д, з, л, у, ч, ъ, э, я
   
---

 -I-

А, Ж, М, Н, О, П, Т, Ф, Х, Ш

ж, м, н, о, п, т, ф, х, ш



===



The idea, somewhere on the internet, is that if an alphabet has more --> and -I- letters then reading is easier.
                                                                                                                                    /more comfortable/



22


"... Although the Chinese characters are difficult to learn, once they are learned and mastered, they make a most rapid reading possible, because they convey the meaning directly to the eyes without resorting to the "sound".
..."
p. 169, Japanese in Thirty Hours, Eiichi Kiyooka


---


Chinese characters                 = 2d pictures (in squares) + some rules (including numbering and embedding)

English words (some of them) = 1d pictures (in lines)      + some rules


---

/English/
Pictures "make a most rapid reading possible, because they convey the meaning directly to the eyes without resorting to the "sound"".
/and they can also bring on the "right" sound/dialect/

Reading on the other hand is more demanding (some Latin, some French, some Greek , some ...).
/English/


===


Chinese characters (as 2d pictures)

https://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Written_Chinese/Calligraphy


---

most english spelling reforms are bad

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TEsqY4MH40s


/probably because reforms deprive people of pictures and force them not to pronounce words in their accustomed manner (dialect)/



23
Outside of the box / Re: "Russian orphografy "
« Last post by Rock100 on August 31, 2021, 02:47:35 PM »
It is always fun to know how foreigners treat other languages.

> This is why double consonants are usually retained from original spelling when their
> pronunciation is not normally geminated.
Gemination in the words you have provided below depends upon the pace of speech and carefulness of a speaker. For example, Russians geminate l in dollar in careful pronunciation even if natives never do it.

>In addition, unpalatalized consonants are usually followed by ⟨е⟩ rather than ⟨э⟩
> (e.g. кафе [kɐˈfɛ],'café'); 19th-century linguists, such as Yakov Karlovich Grot,
> considered unpalatalized pronunciation of consonants before /e/ to be foreign to
> Russian, though this has now become the standard for many loanwords.
I am not sure I understand the idea of the quoted excerpt completely but Russian do pronounce кафЭ and not кафЕ. In other words, it is always hard F in this very word. This is all the difference in this very word. The stressed vowel sound is absolutely the same (probably the tongue position will be a little bit higher if you try to pronounce it as кафЕ but there will not be any (much) difference).
What you probably might mean is the difference in pronunciation of such words as спортсмен (sportsman), академия (academy) and so like. Though the total majority of Russians pronounce them with Е – спортсмЕн, акадЕмия – linguists distinguish the academic pronunciation (академическое произношение) of such words --  спортсмЭн, акадЭмия. Again it is all about softness of the preceding consonant only, vowel is the same. As the example, you may consider the early Glukoza’s hit called Nevesta (fiancee) – it was clear спортсмЭн. I believe she has got rid of the accent nowadays.

The idea of “direction” sounds too farfetched to me. If you say Эксперт as Експерт (Е is diphthong in this very case) it will sound very ironically (the person is not an idiot but does not know the subject he is talking about indeed). And эконОмика and эколОгия in quick or careless speech will start with the perfect English long E sound – икономика, икология -- rather than Russian Е. Starting them with Russian E will make these very words sound very hypertrophied and I will not take a risk to explain what it would mean in general – you need the context to guess what your conversant really mean or try to mean.
24
Outside of the box / "Russian" orphografy
« Last post by waive15 on August 31, 2021, 04:39:33 AM »

Russian orthography

            /pravopisánije    (connecting/linking -o-)/
             https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%D0%BF%D1%80%D0%B0%D0%B2%D0%BE%D0%BF%D0%B8%D1%81%D0%B0%D0%BD%D0%B8%D0%B5     
       


---



https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian_orthography


...

Phonetic principle, 4th pargraph:

"   (1.) borrowed words are usually spelled as transliterations, often ignoring actual pronunciation until they become more fully nativized. This is why double consonants are usually retained from original spelling when their pronunciation is not normally geminated. (2.) In addition, unpalatalized consonants are usually followed by ⟨е⟩ rather than ⟨э⟩ (e.g. кафе [kɐˈfɛ],'café'); 19th-century linguists, such as Yakov Karlovich Grot, considered unpalatalized pronunciation of consonants before /e/ to be foreign to Russian, though this has now become the standard for many loanwords."

...



(0.)
     Too many foreign words. It resembles the story of colonel [ˈkɜrnl].


https://www.etymonline.com/search?q=colonel
"... English spelling was modified 1580s in learned writing to conform with the Italian form (via translations of Italian military manuals), ..."



      https://www.thefreedictionary.com/learned
      learned [ˈlɜːnɪd]
      adj.
      1. having great knowledge or erudition
      2. involving or characterized by scholarship
      3. (Law) (prenominal) a title applied in referring to a member of the legal profession, esp to a barrister: my learned friend.
                                                                                                                                               A Fish Called Wanda (1988)



(1.)
     Once upon a time a son asked 100 dollars from his father . The father sent his son 10 dollars with a note: "Dear son, let me remind you that one writes ten with one zero."

"Russian" word                            Russian word

грамматика                                 граматика

группa                                        групa

доллар                                        долар

коммерсант                                 комерсант

коммуникация                             комуникация

профессия                                  професия

агрессия                                     агресия

коллега                                      колега

оппонент                                    опонент

мисс                                           мис

миссис                                        мисиз

Джонни Депп                              Джони Деп
 
Ванесса Паради                          Ванеса Паради

...



(2.)
     -->
direction of reading/writing (in English, Russian, ...)

     e   (Russian letter)
    --> (direction of the letter)

     э   (Russian letter)
   <-- (direction of the letter)



~Russian word                           ~Russian word

                                                /the writing is more smooth
                                                /the Russian word with e in that case is more close to
                                                /the English one if one is talking about transliteration
                                                /at times е (and и?) deviate from their "soft" behaviour
 
  эксперт                                    експерт

  экономика                                економика

  экология                                  екология

  ...


---

Transliteration with e in Russian words seems more natural: economics - економикс; ... /е = э (here е is hard)/.
Even икономика (и = hard и) could be permissible.

In English there was transliteration too: Latin ae --> English e; ...

Let natural selection do its work (survival of the fittest word forms; no centralised language reforms).

---


hard - soft

а      -     я
 
э      -     е

ы     -     и

о      -     ё

у      -     ю


/it seems, at times, е (and и?) deviate from their "soft" behaviour/
---


25

-ize

The other affixes with z given by

https://www.affixes.org/index.html

are:

az(o)- / azot(o)‑

benz(o)-
             /
              benzoin
              https://www.etymonline.com/word/benzoin

               benzene
               https://www.etymonline.com/search?q=benzene
              /

piezo-

rhizo-

schiz(o)-

zetta-

             /
              zetta-
              https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/zetta-
             /

-zoic

zoo-

-zoon / ‑zoa, ‑zoan, ‑zoic

zygo-

zym(o)-


All are foreign in English. All are Greek, or come from Greek (zetta-), except benz(o)-.

The difference between them and -ize/-ise is that -ize/-ise is productive in English (= -ize is naturalised).
                                                                               
/nature --> natural --> naturalise --> naturalised/




===



An average (~ 50 000 words) Dictionary of English would probably have about 30 z-words.


zany; zap;

zeal; zealot;

zebra; zebu;

zed (UK name of the letter Z);
zee (US name of the letter Z);

Zen; zenith; zephyr; zero; zest;

zig-zag; zinc; zing; zinnia; Zion; zip; zip code (US postcode); zirconium; zither;

zodiac; zombie; zone; zonked;

zoo; zoology; zoophyte;

zoom;

zucchini;

Zulu


apart from Zimbabwe, Zanzibar, ...



===



-i- 
https://www.affixes.org/alpha/i/-i-.html

a connecting/linking vowel from Latin

In Latin this is a regular part of word formation. As a result, it occurs in many words borrowed into English either directly from Latin or through French, for example omnivorous, uniform, and pacific. On the model of these and others, it has come to be used in words created in English. These can be formed from words which are ultimately of Latin origin, such as calciferous (containing or producing calcium salts, from Latin calx, calc‑, lime), ultimately from Greek, such as amoebiform (like an amoeba, from Greek amoibē, change, alternation), or even from those not of classical origin, such as tickicide (a substance that kills ticks, see ‑cide). It occurs particularly before an ending of Latin origin such as ‑ana, ‑ferous, ‑fic, ‑form, ‑fy, ‑gerous, or ‑vorous (see ‑vore).



‑o‑
https://www.affixes.org/alpha/o/-o-.html

a connecting/linking vowel from Greek

This appears as the final vowel of many prefixes, such as chloro‑, Indo‑1, pneumo‑, schizo‑, and techno‑. It comes ultimately from its use as a linking vowel in classical Greek combinations, which were borrowed into Latin and thereafter arrived in English via French. It is often used in English as a connecting vowel irrespective of the source of the word elements it links. However, it is often left off if the following element begins with a vowel (as, for example, with phlebo‑, a vein, where the ‑o‑ is lost in forming phlebitis, inflammation of the walls of a vein). In English the vowel also often acts as a link between a stem and an ending, as in cottonocracy or speedometer. In this book it is the Greek source stem that is decisive in placing an ending in its alphabetical sequence, so that entries (to take two common examples) are listed as ‑cracy rather than ‑ocracy and ‑logy rather than ‑ology; however, ‑onym appears in that form because it derives from Greek onoma, name. Entries are cross-referenced where confusion might arise.


---

i - u

e - o



-ous
    https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/-ous#English

-ious  = -i- +‎ -ous
    https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/-ious#English

-uous = -u- + -ous (?)
    https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/-uous#English

-eous = -e- + -ous (?)
    https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/-eous#English





-???-
vowel                   connecting/linking vowel

i - u                         -i- / -u-
                  -->
e - o                        -e- / -o-

If there is a connecting/linking vowel, is it really necessary to use a connecting/linking "-" !?
-???-




===



Basic English

https://simple.wikipedia.org/wiki/Basic_English

---

Simplified English

https://simple.wikipedia.org/wiki/Simplified_English

---

Special English

https://simple.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special_English

---

...



===


26

algorithm:


 for the first 100 ~ 200 words one has to trust (spelling);

                https://www.dictionary.com/browse/trust

 for the rest one has to check

                https://www.dictionary.com/browse/check

                    ...

                   (4)  to investigate or verify as to correctness
             
                   (5)  to make an inquiry into, search through, etc.

                    ...


     https://www.etymonline.com/

     https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Wiktionary:Main_Page

     https://www.affixes.org/index.html


 then (again) one might (~???) check some of the first 100 ~ 200 words




===



x, y, z, j, w

---

x            - "native" in Latin

y, z         - Greek   in Latin (y (Greek-i) and z were used only(?) in Greek words)

j, w         - new     in Latin alphabet

---

x, y, j, w - native   in English

---

z             - odd       in English /bizarre, muzzle, nuzzle, snooze, booze, .../



-ize

(?) the only affix with z in English is -ize (?)

https://www.etymonline.com/search?q=-ize

word-forming element used to make verbs, Middle English -isen, from Old French -iser/-izer, from Late Latin -izare, from Greek -izein, a verb-forming element denoting the doing of the noun or adjective to which it is attached.

The variation of -ize and -ise began in Old French and Middle English, perhaps aided by a few words (such as surprise, see below) where the ending is French or Latin, not Greek. With the classical revival, English partially reverted to the correct Greek -z- spelling from late 16c. But the 1694 edition of the authoritative French Academy dictionary standardized the spellings as -s-, which influenced English.

In Britain, despite the opposition to it (at least formerly) of OED, Encyclopaedia Britannica, the Times of London, and Fowler, -ise remains dominant. Fowler thinks this is to avoid the difficulty of remembering the short list of common words not from Greek which must be spelled with an -s- (such as advertise, devise, surprise). American English has always favored -ize. The spelling variation involves about 200 English verbs.


https://www.affixes.org/alpha/i/-ize.html





For simplicity, as a foreigner, one would choose -ise.




Here is a text for example.

https://www.computerweekly.com/opinion/Does-artificial-intelligence-have-a-language-problem

anthropomorphise /4th paragraph, 4th word/

recognise /7th paragraph, 4th line/

categorised /7th paragraph, last line/ (etymonline com and dictionary com do not mention the word)

organisations /11th paragraph, 13th word; 16th paragraph, 2nd word/


also

    kinaesthetic /5th paragraph, 7th word from the end/

    https://www.etymonline.com/search?q=kinaesthetic

    kinesthetic

   /ae - e   one is free to choose/

==


27
English words' orthography

/words are numbered in order of importance and usage/




Signs in/of English

. , ; ? ! - ' ... 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 ...



Words in/of English

#1-52       (monographs)
a, A, b, B, ...

---

#53-67(?) (digraphs)
ae, ..., ph, ...

---

#68-76(?) (trigraphs)
sch, ...

---

... (?)

---

#77-84(?)
be/am, is, are/was, were/being/been
   /isn't, aren't/wasn't, weren't
  /beings

#85-??
have/has/had/...
      /...

#??-???
do/does/did/...
   /...

#???-???
will/would
    /...

#???-???
shall/should
      /...

#???-???
can/could
    /...

#???-???
may/might
     /...

#???-???
must/ -
       /...

#???-???
ought/ -
        /...

#???-???
need/ -
      /...

#???-???
dare/ -
      /...

#???-???
 - / used
  /... (?)

---

#???-??? (Prepositions, ~20)
...

---

#???-??? (Pronouns)
...

---

#???-??? (Articles)
a, an, the

---

#???-??? (Nouns, ~20 /all forms/)
...

---

#???-??? (Adjectives, ~20 /all forms/)
...

---
#???-??? (Adverbs, ~20 /all forms/)
...

---

...

---

#???-???
do

   level down      level up      origin

        -do-           +do+        _ --> _

        ado              ...               
         ...

a-   
        -"-               -"-             -"-

---

#???-???
go

        -go-         +go+         _ --> _
       ago             go on   
                    /two-word
                     verb (word)/ 
         ...              ...   

a-
        -"-              -"-              -"-

---

...

---

#???-???
all

         -all-         +all+            _ --> _
           ...             ...             all --> al-

al-
          -"-             -"-                 -"-
---

...

---

#???-???
full

        -full-        +full+            _ --> _
          ...              ...            full --> -ful

-ful
          -"-             -"-                 -"-

---

...

---

#???-???
access

      -cess-         +cess+         _ --> _
         ...                             ced --> cess

ac-
          -"-             -"-           ad- --> ac- /d --> c before c/
---

#???-???
...




===

do, go, a-, all, al- ... above are given as an illustration

===

This list is made up of words defined as such in

http://linguistforum.com/outside-of-the-box/spelling-(and-morphology-(and-syntax-(and-punctuation)))/msg44144/#msg44144

Letter is Word, #-graph is Word, Morpheme is Word, Word is Word, #-phrase is Word, (...) Sentence is Word.

===

There are other lists.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dolch_word_list

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Most_common_words_in_English

https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Appendix:1000_basic_English_words

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/General_Service_List

https://www.talkenglish.com/vocabulary/top-2000-vocabulary.aspx

https://www.scribd.com/document/179640086/5000-Most-Common-Words-pdf

https://gist.github.com/deekayen/4148741

https://www.worldclasslearning.com/english/4000-most-common-english-words.html

...

One can get the picture.

28
Historical Linguistics / Re: Sprachbunds
« Last post by Forbes on August 15, 2021, 01:03:55 AM »
Languages meet and mix in all sorts of ways for various reasons. I can see that when people need to communicate they will make concessions, but the grammar of one language "interfering" with another seems extreme. Adoption by a group of languages of grammatical features does not in fact increase mutual intelligibility between them, so it is puzzling why it happens.
29
Yes, but again the phrasing is long and somewhat awkward, because it can be phrased more directly as: "Kim got less than 30%."
("Total" is also a bit odd there, maybe "possible" would be better.)
30
Thank you Daniel, Now please look at this sentence * Kim achieved less than 30%  of the total score. Is this sentence ok?
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