Author Topic: Affricate + liquid  (Read 1368 times)

Offline Metafight

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Affricate + liquid
« on: June 26, 2016, 07:13:46 AM »
Hello, I have a doubt. Can an affricate consonant (for example, /t͡ʃ/, English ch) and a liquid (like /ɾ/ or /l/) make a cluster, like /t͡ʃɾ/?  The most similar I have seen are things like "each right" /iːt͡ʃ ɾaɪt/ when someone speaks quickly. Is there any language where this type of clusters are usual? If it exists, I guess it must be very uncommon, at least between European languages.
« Last Edit: June 26, 2016, 07:15:44 AM by Metafight »

Offline Daniel

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Re: Affricate + liquid
« Reply #1 on: June 26, 2016, 10:00:40 AM »
In [at least American] English, the orthographic cluster <tr> is usually pronounced [tʃɹ], and the same is often true for <dr> as [dʒɹ]. "train" is pronounced like "chrain" and "drink" like "jrink".

What you've written there is a flap [ɾ], not an English R, which I don't think is considered a liquid (even though it's a "rhotic", but that only means R-like).

As for [l], I'm not sure.

Another question, possibly relevant for <tr> and <dr> is whether you're talking about this phonetically or phonologically. Is there some important reason to see those phonemes as affricates or stops? Or is that just based on an orthographic convention in English?
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Offline Metafight

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Re: Affricate + liquid
« Reply #2 on: June 26, 2016, 12:44:18 PM »
Yes, there is an important reason to distinguish them phonologically.

Well, let me explain better. This is for a conlang that I'm creating, whose phonotactics rules are very restrictive with stop consonants. Due to this, several loanwords have to be adapted, so I had thought that, when a stop is in a forbidden position, it might be replaced for a fricative (/p/ > /f/, /b/ > /v/, /k/ or /g/ > /h/) or an affricate (/t/ > /t͡ʃ/, /d/ > /d͡ʒ/), according to the "natural" evolution of the old language. So I wanted to know if an affricate can make a cluster with r or l, for example, to adapt the word /dɾakul/ as /d͡ʒɾakul/ (stops can't start a word).

Yes, I know English R is not /ɾ/ but /ɹ/, it was just an example, I thought they could be considered equivalent in this context. In any case, my language uses /ɹ/ like English.

Thanks for help.

PD: Sorry for my mistakes, English is not my native language.
« Last Edit: June 27, 2016, 03:55:11 AM by Metafight »

Offline panini

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Re: Affricate + liquid
« Reply #3 on: June 26, 2016, 05:15:09 PM »
If you are familiar with The Hero's Tongue, there is a verb chrowl with what you seek. Affricates are a type of stop, so your generalization about initial stops being forbidden would have to change, or you would need an alternative resolution. If [daul] and [draul] are forbidden, then [dzaul, dʒaul, dzraul, dʒraul] should be as well, though [zaul, ʒaul,  zraul, ʒraul] would be okay. If you insist on the outcome being [dzraul, dʒraul], then you'll need to make the initial stop rule more complicated.

In dialects of Modern Arabic which have [dʒ] and initial cluster, [dʒr] and [dʒl] clusters are common enough, for example Bedouin [dʒlisat] "she sat"; Russian tʃlen "limb", tʃrevo "womb".

Offline Metafight

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Re: Affricate + liquid
« Reply #4 on: June 26, 2016, 07:30:23 PM »
Thanks a lot, panini.

I didn't become aware that affricates can be considered as a type of stop, you're right. However, I'd prefer to keep the stops rule, or I'd have to make a lot of changes in its phonetic structure, and I really like how it looks right now. I think it might have solution, this phonotactic rule is due to language evolution: each stop, except if it was preceded for consonant, changed to fricative or affricate, so these phonemes replaced stops in these positions. For example: pashpu' > fashpu', du' > dʒu' or kir > hir.

If I just complicate the rule a little more (excluding affricates /tʃ/ and /dʒ/), it will be fine, right?

Offline Daniel

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Re: Affricate + liquid
« Reply #5 on: June 26, 2016, 09:17:56 PM »
Quote
phonotactics rules are very restrictive with stop consonants. Due to this, several loanwords have to be adapted, so I had thought that, when a stop is in a forbidden position, it might be replaced for a fricative
That sounds like a standard phonological rule, and exactly what happens in English before R.

Quote
.../ɹ/, it was just an example, I thought they could be considered equivalent in this context
That's fine, but I wasn't sure if you were technically restricting this to liquids.

Quote
...it will be fine, right?
Conlangs are art, so whatever seems right to you. The main thing you should avoid, if you are trying to make it similar to real languages, is to avoid inconsistency -- even if the rules are complicated, make them consistent for all contexts unless there is some exceptional circumstance (like a taboo word, etc.).
« Last Edit: June 26, 2016, 09:20:20 PM by djr33 »
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Offline Metafight

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Re: Affricate + liquid
« Reply #6 on: June 27, 2016, 02:50:30 AM »
Ok, djr33, I'll keep it in mind. Thank you everyone for your help, guys ;D .