Author Topic: Croatian toponyms  (Read 73580 times)

Offline FlatAssembler

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Re: Croatian toponyms
« Reply #90 on: April 14, 2019, 06:32:57 AM »
Slightly related to the topic, in my statistical calculations, I assumed that, in unrelated toponyms, we can expect all the consonants and all the vowels to be equally common, that the only relic of the relative frequencies of the letters we see in texts will be that the vowels will be more common than consonants (because that's what makes toponyms pronounceable). However, after doing a little more research, I am not so sure that's a valid assumption. You can read more about that here:
https://linguistics.stackexchange.com/questions/31164/what-causes-relative-frequency-of-consonants

Offline panini

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Re: Croatian toponyms
« Reply #91 on: April 14, 2019, 11:22:49 AM »
I don't understand your toponym argument, but theoretically you would be claiming that the rate at which certain consonants occur in toponyms in Croatia is significantly different from what you would expect based on the properties of proto-Slavic and relevant descendants. For example if k were a rare sound in Slavic, or r, but k...r is common in CTs, you have some evidence that CTs are not from Slavic. However you would need to also establish that CTs are not influenced by being compounds, where there is a single widely-used morpheme that happens to have a less-frequent consonant. For example, I think that v is a less-frequent consonant in Norwegian, but it turns out to be frequent in names of lakes (e.g. Juvvatnet, Prestvann) – because vatn~vann is the word for "water", commonly used to mean "small lake". This can skew your count.

Applied to CTs, the question is in part whether there exists a well-motivated source for some kr root. There is a poorly-attested root kʲer meaning something like "run", linked to horse, chariot and husar, but there are also similar roots meaning "increase; cherry; burn; hang; spoil" that have even less connection to rivers.

A lot of local place names are just seeming random sounds, except if you happen to know the language (now extinct) from which they originated. Tons of place name with ...mish, ...mie – because it means "people". Were it not for modern linguists, we would not know that fact.

Offline FlatAssembler

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Re: Croatian toponyms
« Reply #92 on: February 09, 2020, 06:37:51 AM »
I got banned from 000webhost for "hate speech", and, as I don't think the things they complained about are actual hate speech (yet alone that it's fair to take down my entire website because of that), I moved my website to GitHub Pages. Here is the new link to my web-page about toponyms:
https://flatassembler.github.io/toponyms.html

Offline FlatAssembler

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Re: Croatian toponyms
« Reply #93 on: March 11, 2020, 04:11:35 AM »
And what do you think about the updated version of Etymology Game? Does it produce convincing results? Why or why not?

Offline FlatAssembler

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Re: Croatian toponyms
« Reply #94 on: March 11, 2020, 04:18:49 AM »
Also, in the newest version of my alternative interpretation of the Croatian toponyms, I've done some historical revisionism, as well as linguistic revisionism. For instance, I've argued that the name Lissa in antiquity referred to Ugljan, rather than to Pag (as the mainstream Croatian history claims).
Lissa < This toponym was attested in ancient times by Pliny the Elder in Naturalis Historia in 3rd book in the 63rd chapter as "Contra Iader est Lissa.", Iader being the ancient name for Zadar. The mainstream history generally considers that toponym to be a corruption of the ancient name for Pag, Cissa. However, I think that, if Pliny wanted to refer to Pag, he could a lot more appropriately write "contra Aenonam" or, even better, "contra Vegium" (Vegium being the ancient name for Karlobag), rather than "contra Iader". So, I think this toponym, in antiquity, referred to Ugljan. And I think that, in the late stages of Illyrian, that was the generic word for island, whichever root it comes from. Namely, the modern Italian name for Vis is Lissa, and the modern Italian name for Hvar is Lesina. The modern island name Lošinj, unattested in antiquity, could come from that same root.
Do you think that's dishonest of me?

Offline Daniel

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Re: Croatian toponyms
« Reply #95 on: March 11, 2020, 05:17:43 AM »
Quote
I've done some historical revisionism, as well as linguistic revisionism. ... Do you think that's dishonest of me?
You've answered your own question.

There's little left to discuss here: you've proposed your etymologies, and they're available for anyone interested to read.
Welcome to Linguist Forum! If you have any questions, please ask.

Offline FlatAssembler

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Re: Croatian toponyms
« Reply #96 on: March 11, 2020, 11:01:15 AM »
Quote
I've done some historical revisionism, as well as linguistic revisionism. ... Do you think that's dishonest of me?
You've answered your own question.

There's little left to discuss here: you've proposed your etymologies, and they're available for anyone interested to read.
And, do you think that me suggesting that "Lissa" was the ancient name for the island of Ugljan, even though the mainstream history considers it to refer to the island of Pag, makes my hypothesis significantly less credible?

Offline FlatAssembler

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Re: Croatian toponyms
« Reply #97 on: May 05, 2020, 08:12:54 AM »
What do you think about my assertions about the Illyrian grammar? Are they plausible?
Here are the sound changes I propose happened from Proto-Indo-European to Illyrian:
[kw]>k
[kj]m>y
[kj]>k
[bh]a>p
[bh]>β
[gj]>gh
[l]s>s
[n]s>s
[m]r>b
[ew]>i
[ey]>i
[e]rC>i
C[l]C>il (perhaps not between all consonants)
0[H]C>e
So, because of the epenthetic vowel 'e' appearing only in the first syllable (Ervenica), I suggest that the stress was always on the first syllable. I also have a temptation to think that the nominative singular actually ended in -i in Illyrian. The suffix -i- is seen in, for instance, Serapia, Krndija, Colapis, and possibly also in Andautonia. I believe that the primary ablaut changed from e/o in PIE to a/u in Illyrian, for instance, in the toponyms such as Mursa, Marsonia and Mariniana. The geminates (long consonants, they don't exist in English, but they existed in Latin and were written as double consonants) in the toponyms such as Issa and Pannonia are probably explicable by some consonants being doubled after a short vowel, like in Middle English more or less. It's not quite clear what sound changes the Proto-Indo-European syllabic 'l' (and therefore probably other syllabic consonants) had undergone. It appears to have been retained after a 'w' (Vuka, Ulciria), but not after a 'd' (Dilj), where it appears to have been turned into 'il'. The 'e' turning to 'i' if followed by r+consonant was happening in the very late stages of Illyrian, the name Certissia is attested in the Antonine Itinerary as Cirtisia, and the name Sirmium is attested by Polemius Sylvius as Sermium. The g sound, as far as I know, hasn't been attested in any Illyrian name, and it's possible all the Proto-Indo-European velars merged into one sound. However, this is, among Indo-European languages, unattested, and is therefore unlikely, and the lack of g in attested words and names is probably a coincidence. I think the most common consonants in Illyrian were s and l, for the element *sal~sol appears in at least three meanings: something related to rivers (the ancient name for Jadro River was Sallia, and there are three hydronyms Zala in Slovenia: one is the river that flows from the Fekete To lake on the border with Hungary, one is the river with the waterfall called Kotel, and one is a stream near Železniki), in the word probably meaning exactly "island" (attested in ancient name for Šolta, Solenta, in all likelihood related to the Latvian word sala meaning island), and in the word meaning "salty", attested in the ancient name for the Messapian salt lake Salpi, Salapia, and perhaps in the toponym Sali near the salt lake Mir. I think the word *sal in the meaning river is a borrowing from Pelasgian, because one of the ancient names for the river Peneus in Greece was Σαλαμβριας. It's likely that, under some conditions, Indo-European *s turned to the ʃ (sh in ship) sound in Illyrian, because Pseudo-Scylax wrote the name Solenta as Holynta, and it's a lot more likely somebody would hear the ʃ sound as h than the s sound as h. However, since neither Latin alphabet nor the Greek alphabet had a letter for the ʃ sound, it's hard to tell under what conditions Illyrian s turned to ʃ.

Offline FlatAssembler

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Re: Croatian toponyms
« Reply #98 on: September 09, 2020, 03:54:34 AM »
One of the papers I published about my alternative interpretation of the Croatian toponyms is now available on the Internet, here on page 70.

Offline FlatAssembler

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Re: Croatian toponyms
« Reply #99 on: September 09, 2020, 04:13:03 AM »
One of the arguments I guess I will get against my alternative interpretation of the names of places in Croatia is something like this:
Quote
If "Issa" really means "spring" in Illyrian, how come nobody in antiquity suggested that? There were attempts to etymologize the name "Issa" in antiquity. Strabo suggested it's related to the name "Antissa" on the island of Lesbos, and an anonymous scribe inscribed on the forum that it got its name from the name of Ionios the Illyrian. Of course those etymologies are more than likely wrong, but if nobody in antiquity suggested that "Issa" means "spring", isn't that kind of arrogant of you to suggest something like that?
So, what do you think is the best response to that? The response I'd give is that maybe Strabo and that anonymous scribe didn't know Illyrian, and that, had Saint Jerome (who claimed to speak Illyrian) tried to etymologize those names, he would most likely given us reasonable answers. What do you think?

Offline FlatAssembler

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Re: Croatian toponyms
« Reply #100 on: January 17, 2021, 01:51:26 AM »
What do you think, what is the origin of the river name "Una"? I think it is some sort of an onomatopoeia, as it is a name of numerous rivers all over the world and is also the Etruscan word for stream. However, it escapes me what it would be an onomatopoeia of. I have started this discussion on Reddit as well.

Offline FlatAssembler

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Re: Croatian toponyms
« Reply #101 on: March 18, 2021, 09:28:26 AM »
I have just made a validation of the algorithm used in Etymology Game. The results are not particularly impressive: https://flatassembler.github.io/validation_results.html

Offline FlatAssembler

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Re: Croatian toponyms
« Reply #102 on: May 19, 2021, 12:36:44 PM »
I will try to publish a new paper about linguistics, this time with a different strategy. Here is the abstract in English, and you can download the whole paper, but the rest is in Croatian:
What will the language we speak now look like in the future? To a large extent, that question is impossible to answer. The vocabulary of our language will gain, but also forget (How many young people today know what a floppy disk is, yet alone what a fiacre is?), words related to technology, the development of which is impossible to predict. The vocabulary of our language will also receive words from languages that will be used in international communication, which is dependent on politics, and it is also impossible to predict long-term (If you told somebody in Roman Empire that, one day, a Germanic language will be a global language, and that most of the languages all over the world will have loan-words from it, they will look at you oddly.). Morphology and syntax follow some scientific laws (analytic languages evolve into agglutinative ones, agglutinative ones evolve into fusional languages, and fusional languages evolve into analytic ones.), but those laws are difficult to model computationally and probably full of exceptions (Armenian language, for example, is an agglutinative language that evolved from the fusional Indo-European proto-language, but there is no reason to think there was a time when it was an analytic language.). Morphology and syntax are also probably somewhat influenced by politics (It seems as though languages with many adult learners, such as English or Late Latin, tend to have simpler morphology but more complicated syntax. Similarly, some syntactic structures that recently appeared in the Croatian language are probably an influence of the English language.). Nevertheless, is it possible to predict how the phonology of a language will develop? Here, I have researched exactly that, I have tried to make a computer model of the phonological evolution of languages. Although I was not particularly successful at that, I believe my work can come helpful to others, at least not to repeat the mistakes I have made, because, as far as I know, nobody has done anything like that. I have also researched whether computer models can be used in toponomastics, and, related to that, what effect do different parts of the grammar have on the entropy of human languages. I came to the conclusion that, in the Croatian language, phonology takes away 1.62 bits per symbol of entropy of consonant pairs, that syntax takes away 0.21 bits per symbol, and that morphology takes away 1.57 bits per symbol. Only 5.99 bits per symbol of entropy of pairs of consonants is semantics.
What do you think, does that paper have a chance of getting published? Why or why not?

Offline panini

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Re: Croatian toponyms
« Reply #103 on: May 19, 2021, 05:59:28 PM »
100%: you just published it.

Did you have in mind a reputable scholarly journal, like Linguistic Inquiry?

Offline FlatAssembler

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Re: Croatian toponyms
« Reply #104 on: May 20, 2021, 03:19:35 AM »
100%: you just published it.

Did you have in mind a reputable scholarly journal, like Linguistic Inquiry?
I meant some Croatian journal. I doubt it is enough quality for Folia Onomastica Croatica. But expecting it to get published in some less-reputable journal, such as Ethnologica Possegana or Regionalne Studije sounds reasonable, right?