Author Topic: "Russian" orphografy  (Read 1028 times)

Online waive15

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"Russian" orphografy
« on: August 31, 2021, 04:39:33 AM »

Russian orthography

            /pravopisánije    (connecting/linking -o-)/
             https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%D0%BF%D1%80%D0%B0%D0%B2%D0%BE%D0%BF%D0%B8%D1%81%D0%B0%D0%BD%D0%B8%D0%B5     
       


---



https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian_orthography


...

Phonetic principle, 4th pargraph:

"   (1.) borrowed words are usually spelled as transliterations, often ignoring actual pronunciation until they become more fully nativized. This is why double consonants are usually retained from original spelling when their pronunciation is not normally geminated. (2.) In addition, unpalatalized consonants are usually followed by ⟨е⟩ rather than ⟨э⟩ (e.g. кафе [kɐˈfɛ],'café'); 19th-century linguists, such as Yakov Karlovich Grot, considered unpalatalized pronunciation of consonants before /e/ to be foreign to Russian, though this has now become the standard for many loanwords."

...



(0.)
     Too many foreign words. It resembles the story of colonel [ˈkɜrnl].


https://www.etymonline.com/search?q=colonel
"... English spelling was modified 1580s in learned writing to conform with the Italian form (via translations of Italian military manuals), ..."



      https://www.thefreedictionary.com/learned
      learned [ˈlɜːnɪd]
      adj.
      1. having great knowledge or erudition
      2. involving or characterized by scholarship
      3. (Law) (prenominal) a title applied in referring to a member of the legal profession, esp to a barrister: my learned friend.
                                                                                                                                               A Fish Called Wanda (1988)



(1.)
     Once upon a time a son asked 100 dollars from his father . The father sent his son 10 dollars with a note: "Dear son, let me remind you that one writes ten with one zero."

"Russian" word                            Russian word

грамматика                                 граматика

группa                                        групa

доллар                                        долар

коммерсант                                 комерсант

коммуникация                             комуникация

профессия                                  професия

агрессия                                     агресия

коллега                                      колега

оппонент                                    опонент

мисс                                           мис

миссис                                        мисиз

Джонни Депп                              Джони Деп
 
Ванесса Паради                          Ванеса Паради

...



(2.)
     -->
direction of reading/writing (in English, Russian, ...)

     e   (Russian letter)
    --> (direction of the letter)

     э   (Russian letter)
   <-- (direction of the letter)



~Russian word                           ~Russian word

                                                /the writing is more smooth
                                                /the Russian word with e in that case is more close to
                                                /the English one if one is talking about transliteration
                                                /at times е (and и?) deviate from their "soft" behaviour
 
  эксперт                                    експерт

  экономика                                економика

  экология                                  екология

  ...


---

Transliteration with e in Russian words seems more natural: economics - економикс; ... /е = э (here е is hard)/.
Even икономика (и = hard и) could be permissible.

In English there was transliteration too: Latin ae --> English e; ...

Let natural selection do its work (survival of the fittest word forms; no centralised language reforms).

---


hard - soft

а      -     я
 
э      -     е

ы     -     и

о      -     ё

у      -     ю


/it seems, at times, е (and и?) deviate from their "soft" behaviour/
---


« Last Edit: September 04, 2021, 02:30:52 AM by waive15 »

Offline Rock100

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Re: "Russian orphografy "
« Reply #1 on: August 31, 2021, 02:47:35 PM »
It is always fun to know how foreigners treat other languages.

> This is why double consonants are usually retained from original spelling when their
> pronunciation is not normally geminated.
Gemination in the words you have provided below depends upon the pace of speech and carefulness of a speaker. For example, Russians geminate l in dollar in careful pronunciation even if natives never do it.

>In addition, unpalatalized consonants are usually followed by ⟨е⟩ rather than ⟨э⟩
> (e.g. кафе [kɐˈfɛ],'café'); 19th-century linguists, such as Yakov Karlovich Grot,
> considered unpalatalized pronunciation of consonants before /e/ to be foreign to
> Russian, though this has now become the standard for many loanwords.
I am not sure I understand the idea of the quoted excerpt completely but Russian do pronounce кафЭ and not кафЕ. In other words, it is always hard F in this very word. This is all the difference in this very word. The stressed vowel sound is absolutely the same (probably the tongue position will be a little bit higher if you try to pronounce it as кафЕ but there will not be any (much) difference).
What you probably might mean is the difference in pronunciation of such words as спортсмен (sportsman), академия (academy) and so like. Though the total majority of Russians pronounce them with Е – спортсмЕн, акадЕмия – linguists distinguish the academic pronunciation (академическое произношение) of such words --  спортсмЭн, акадЭмия. Again it is all about softness of the preceding consonant only, vowel is the same. As the example, you may consider the early Glukoza’s hit called Nevesta (fiancee) – it was clear спортсмЭн. I believe she has got rid of the accent nowadays.

The idea of “direction” sounds too farfetched to me. If you say Эксперт as Експерт (Е is diphthong in this very case) it will sound very ironically (the person is not an idiot but does not know the subject he is talking about indeed). And эконОмика and эколОгия in quick or careless speech will start with the perfect English long E sound – икономика, икология -- rather than Russian Е. Starting them with Russian E will make these very words sound very hypertrophied and I will not take a risk to explain what it would mean in general – you need the context to guess what your conversant really mean or try to mean.

Online waive15

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Re: "Russian" orphografy
« Reply #2 on: September 03, 2021, 01:35:45 AM »



     -->
direction of reading in English, Russian, ...




     -->
direction of the letter


     <--
direction of the letter


     -I-
symmetrical letter



===



A, B, C, D, E, F, G, H, I, J, K, L, M, N, O, P, Q, R, S, T, U, V, W, X, Y, Z    (26 letters)

a, b, c, d, e, f, g, h, i, j, k, l, m, n, o, p, q, r, s, t, u, v, w, x, y, z


---


 -->

B, C, D, E, F, G, K, L, N(?), P, Q, R, S(?), Z(?)

b, c, e, f, h, k, m, n, p, r, s(?), t, u(?), z(?)

---

 <--

J

a, d, g, j, q, y

---

 -I-

A, H, I, M, O, T, U, V, W, X, Y

i, l, o, v, w, x



===



А, Б, В, Г, Д, Е, Ё, Ж, З, И, Й, К, Л, М, Н, О, П, Р, С, Т, У, Ф, Х, Ц, Ч, Ш, Щ, Ъ, Ы, Ь, Э, Ю, Я    (33 letters)

а, б, в, г, д, е, ё, ж, з, и, й, к, л, м, н, о, п, р, с, т, у, ф, х, ц, ч, ш, щ, ъ, ы, ь, э, ю, я   


---

 -->

Б, В, Г, Е, Ё, И(?), Й(?), К, Р, С, Ц, Щ, Ы, Ь, Ю

б, в, г, е, ё, и(?), й(?), к, р, с, ц, щ, ы, ь, ю

---

 <--

Д, З, Л, У, Ч, Ъ, Э, Я

а, д, з, л, у, ч, ъ, э, я
   
---

 -I-

А, Ж, М, Н, О, П, Т, Ф, Х, Ш

ж, м, н, о, п, т, ф, х, ш



===



The idea, somewhere on the internet, is that if an alphabet has more --> and -I- letters then reading is easier.
                                                                                                                                    /more comfortable/



« Last Edit: September 04, 2021, 01:08:59 AM by waive15 »

Online waive15

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Re: "Russian" orphografy
« Reply #3 on: December 18, 2021, 08:54:16 AM »

-en2

https://affixes.org/alpha/e/-en2.html

- - -

-en3

https://affixes.org/alpha/e/-en3.html

- - -

The same is in Russian.

- - -

http://russianlearn.com/grammar/category/short_adjectives

- - -

a stands for a vowel.

1. _-an (a word ends in -an)

2. _-an     + en --> _-anen

3. _-anen + a   --> _-anna


Word forms in 2. are missing in Russian.




« Last Edit: December 19, 2021, 07:36:17 AM by waive15 »

Offline Rock100

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Re: "Russian" orphografy
« Reply #4 on: December 20, 2021, 03:39:47 PM »
> The same is in Russian.
> - - -
> http://russianlearn.com/grammar/category/short_adjectives
> - - -
> a stands for a vowel.
> 1. _-an (a word ends in -an)
> 2. _-an     + en --> _-anen
> 3. _-anen + a   --> _-anna
>
> Word forms in 2. are missing in Russian.
It was a challenge indeed – I did feel the word forms in 2. are NOT missing in the language indeed but I was unable to think out an absolutely correct example. Absolutely correct means in this very case the following:
1. The word shall be an adjective. However, you have allowed yourself to mix adjectives with participles in the skipped English part.
2. None letter from_-anen shall be a part of the word’s root.
I almost gave up and decided that _-anen is reserved for nouns in Russian but at last, I came up with the solution – both participle and adjective. It is a taboo word.
Participle: этот гвоздь заебенен криво. This nail is hammered in crookedly.
Adjective: ты просто заебенен/охуенен! You are very cool!
Here is the morpheme parsing https://морфема.рус/словарь/заебенить to make sure the _-anen are suffixes.
« Last Edit: December 20, 2021, 03:50:59 PM by Rock100 »

Online waive15

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Re: "Russian" orphografy
« Reply #5 on: January 15, 2022, 09:09:36 AM »

Hi, Rock100,

Here is cena:

https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/cena

cena /Czech, Latvian, Polish, Serbo-Croatian, Slovak, Slovene/

цена /Bulgarian, Macedonian, Russian, Serbo-Croatian/

https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%D1%86%D0%B5%D0%BD%D0%B0#Serbo-Croatian



цена = цен- + -a

цен- + -ен = ценен  /short form, masculine/

ценен + -a = ценна  /short form, feminine/

           + -о = ценно  /short form, neuter/

           + -ы = ценны /short form, plural/

Short form is older. It does not matter which alphabet official Slavic "language"/dialect uses.


official (adj.)
https://www.etymonline.com/word/official#etymonline_v_44786


From a certain point of view German is almost Slavic. Slavic is almost Latin.

- - -

There are two things to say:

1. languages are not taught in a proper way, to say at least.
    Language as a behaviour is a matter of politics. That way (that is why) it is taught intentionally.

2. to understand official Russian dialect one simply has to look in/at the other Russian/Slavic languages/dialects (no matter (of) the alphabet).


= = =





 
« Last Edit: January 15, 2022, 09:56:50 AM by waive15 »

Offline Rock100

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Re: "Russian" orphografy
« Reply #6 on: January 19, 2022, 06:55:15 PM »
> ценен + -a = ценна  /short form, feminine/
Your example does not satisfy the second criterion – the first -ен- is the part of the word’s root so it looks like _-anen but it is not. It is just the suffix -ен- there and the first -ен- is not a suffix but the part of the root <цен>.

Online waive15

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Re: "Russian" orphografy
« Reply #7 on: January 19, 2022, 10:27:52 PM »

Hi, Rock100,


_an means that the word (any word, morphology does not matter here) ends in

 vowel + n.

- - -

1.
цена = цен- (root) + -a
/-en is a part of the root/


2.
revolution = revolvō +‎ -tiō

https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/revolutio#Latin



-tio (-on is a part of the suffix)

https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/-tio#Latin

_______________________________

r  e v o l  u  t   i (-on)
р е в о л ю ц и (-я)

революция = революцион + ен = революционен + (-ый; -ая; -ое; -ые) = революционный; революционная; революционное; революционные


= = =


If there is not an -anen word in a Russian or Slavic dialect/language (old or contemporary) then there must not be an -anna word.

« Last Edit: January 19, 2022, 10:46:37 PM by waive15 »

Online waive15

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Re: "Russian" orphografy
« Reply #8 on: January 20, 2022, 06:54:14 AM »

I. M. Pulkina

A Short Russian Reference Grammar

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1HrylyFtSU4EDdQPakf53hOCjxmXhXQJZ/view?usp=sharing


= = =


For the past 150 years a lot of "nations", "national" languages, "national" histories, ... have been invented.


nation (n.)
https://www.etymonline.com/word/nation#etymonline_v_2309


= = =

JOJOBA

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0WwnB9dmx8E

« Last Edit: January 20, 2022, 03:42:59 PM by waive15 »

Offline Rock100

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Re: "Russian" orphografy
« Reply #9 on: January 24, 2022, 04:01:47 AM »
> If there is not an -anen word in a Russian or Slavic dialect/language
It was your claim originally. I was just unable to come up with a non-taboo example but I did feel the -anen is pretty valid in Russian. It appears that many –ция–nouns produce adjectives the –anen way (but not all of them).

Online waive15

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Re: "Russian" orphografy
« Reply #10 on: January 24, 2022, 08:20:33 PM »
Hi, Rock100,

революционен is not a Russian word. It is a word from another language.

https://bg.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%A4%D1%80%D0%B5%D0%BD%D1%81%D0%BA%D0%B8_%D1%80%D0%B5%D0%B2%D0%BE%D0%BB%D1%8E%D1%86%D0%B8%D0%BE%D0%BD%D0%B5%D0%BD_%D0%BA%D0%B0%D0%BB%D0%B5%D0%BD%D0%B4%D0%B0%D1%80


= = =

There are many Russian words with -anna but without -anen. This is not logical.



Online waive15

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Re: "Russian" orphografy
« Reply #11 on: Today at 04:18:49 PM »

The Spelling of Past Passive Participles in Russian

Morton Benson, University of Pennsylvania

Preview

https://www.jstor.org/stable/305639