Author Topic: "Russian" orphografy  (Read 508 times)

Offline waive15

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"Russian" orphografy
« on: August 31, 2021, 04:39:33 AM »

Russian orthography

            /pravopisánije    (connecting/linking -o-)/
             https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%D0%BF%D1%80%D0%B0%D0%B2%D0%BE%D0%BF%D0%B8%D1%81%D0%B0%D0%BD%D0%B8%D0%B5     
       


---



https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian_orthography


...

Phonetic principle, 4th pargraph:

"   (1.) borrowed words are usually spelled as transliterations, often ignoring actual pronunciation until they become more fully nativized. This is why double consonants are usually retained from original spelling when their pronunciation is not normally geminated. (2.) In addition, unpalatalized consonants are usually followed by ⟨е⟩ rather than ⟨э⟩ (e.g. кафе [kɐˈfɛ],'café'); 19th-century linguists, such as Yakov Karlovich Grot, considered unpalatalized pronunciation of consonants before /e/ to be foreign to Russian, though this has now become the standard for many loanwords."

...



(0.)
     Too many foreign words. It resembles the story of colonel [ˈkɜrnl].


https://www.etymonline.com/search?q=colonel
"... English spelling was modified 1580s in learned writing to conform with the Italian form (via translations of Italian military manuals), ..."



      https://www.thefreedictionary.com/learned
      learned [ˈlɜːnɪd]
      adj.
      1. having great knowledge or erudition
      2. involving or characterized by scholarship
      3. (Law) (prenominal) a title applied in referring to a member of the legal profession, esp to a barrister: my learned friend.
                                                                                                                                               A Fish Called Wanda (1988)



(1.)
     Once upon a time a son asked 100 dollars from his father . The father sent his son 10 dollars with a note: "Dear son, let me remind you that one writes ten with one zero."

"Russian" word                            Russian word

грамматика                                 граматика

группa                                        групa

доллар                                        долар

коммерсант                                 комерсант

коммуникация                             комуникация

профессия                                  професия

агрессия                                     агресия

коллега                                      колега

оппонент                                    опонент

мисс                                           мис

миссис                                        мисиз

Джонни Депп                              Джони Деп
 
Ванесса Паради                          Ванеса Паради

...



(2.)
     -->
direction of reading/writing (in English, Russian, ...)

     e   (Russian letter)
    --> (direction of the letter)

     э   (Russian letter)
   <-- (direction of the letter)



~Russian word                           ~Russian word

                                                /the writing is more smooth
                                                /the Russian word with e in that case is more close to
                                                /the English one if one is talking about transliteration
                                                /at times е (and и?) deviate from their "soft" behaviour
 
  эксперт                                    експерт

  экономика                                економика

  экология                                  екология

  ...


---

Transliteration with e in Russian words seems more natural: economics - економикс; ... /е = э (here е is hard)/.
Even икономика (и = hard и) could be permissible.

In English there was transliteration too: Latin ae --> English e; ...

Let natural selection do its work (survival of the fittest word forms; no centralised language reforms).

---


hard - soft

а      -     я
 
э      -     е

ы     -     и

о      -     ё

у      -     ю


/it seems, at times, е (and и?) deviate from their "soft" behaviour/
---


« Last Edit: September 04, 2021, 02:30:52 AM by waive15 »

Offline Rock100

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Re: "Russian orphografy "
« Reply #1 on: August 31, 2021, 02:47:35 PM »
It is always fun to know how foreigners treat other languages.

> This is why double consonants are usually retained from original spelling when their
> pronunciation is not normally geminated.
Gemination in the words you have provided below depends upon the pace of speech and carefulness of a speaker. For example, Russians geminate l in dollar in careful pronunciation even if natives never do it.

>In addition, unpalatalized consonants are usually followed by ⟨е⟩ rather than ⟨э⟩
> (e.g. кафе [kɐˈfɛ],'café'); 19th-century linguists, such as Yakov Karlovich Grot,
> considered unpalatalized pronunciation of consonants before /e/ to be foreign to
> Russian, though this has now become the standard for many loanwords.
I am not sure I understand the idea of the quoted excerpt completely but Russian do pronounce кафЭ and not кафЕ. In other words, it is always hard F in this very word. This is all the difference in this very word. The stressed vowel sound is absolutely the same (probably the tongue position will be a little bit higher if you try to pronounce it as кафЕ but there will not be any (much) difference).
What you probably might mean is the difference in pronunciation of such words as спортсмен (sportsman), академия (academy) and so like. Though the total majority of Russians pronounce them with Е – спортсмЕн, акадЕмия – linguists distinguish the academic pronunciation (академическое произношение) of such words --  спортсмЭн, акадЭмия. Again it is all about softness of the preceding consonant only, vowel is the same. As the example, you may consider the early Glukoza’s hit called Nevesta (fiancee) – it was clear спортсмЭн. I believe she has got rid of the accent nowadays.

The idea of “direction” sounds too farfetched to me. If you say Эксперт as Експерт (Е is diphthong in this very case) it will sound very ironically (the person is not an idiot but does not know the subject he is talking about indeed). And эконОмика and эколОгия in quick or careless speech will start with the perfect English long E sound – икономика, икология -- rather than Russian Е. Starting them with Russian E will make these very words sound very hypertrophied and I will not take a risk to explain what it would mean in general – you need the context to guess what your conversant really mean or try to mean.

Offline waive15

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Re: "Russian" orphografy
« Reply #2 on: September 03, 2021, 01:35:45 AM »



     -->
direction of reading in English, Russian, ...




     -->
direction of the letter


     <--
direction of the letter


     -I-
symmetrical letter



===



A, B, C, D, E, F, G, H, I, J, K, L, M, N, O, P, Q, R, S, T, U, V, W, X, Y, Z    (26 letters)

a, b, c, d, e, f, g, h, i, j, k, l, m, n, o, p, q, r, s, t, u, v, w, x, y, z


---


 -->

B, C, D, E, F, G, K, L, N(?), P, Q, R, S(?), Z(?)

b, c, e, f, h, k, m, n, p, r, s(?), t, u(?), z(?)

---

 <--

J

a, d, g, j, q, y

---

 -I-

A, H, I, M, O, T, U, V, W, X, Y

i, l, o, v, w, x



===



А, Б, В, Г, Д, Е, Ё, Ж, З, И, Й, К, Л, М, Н, О, П, Р, С, Т, У, Ф, Х, Ц, Ч, Ш, Щ, Ъ, Ы, Ь, Э, Ю, Я    (33 letters)

а, б, в, г, д, е, ё, ж, з, и, й, к, л, м, н, о, п, р, с, т, у, ф, х, ц, ч, ш, щ, ъ, ы, ь, э, ю, я   


---

 -->

Б, В, Г, Е, Ё, И(?), Й(?), К, Р, С, Ц, Щ, Ы, Ь, Ю

б, в, г, е, ё, и(?), й(?), к, р, с, ц, щ, ы, ь, ю

---

 <--

Д, З, Л, У, Ч, Ъ, Э, Я

а, д, з, л, у, ч, ъ, э, я
   
---

 -I-

А, Ж, М, Н, О, П, Т, Ф, Х, Ш

ж, м, н, о, п, т, ф, х, ш



===



The idea, somewhere on the internet, is that if an alphabet has more --> and -I- letters then reading is easier.
                                                                                                                                    /more comfortable/



« Last Edit: September 04, 2021, 01:08:59 AM by waive15 »