Author Topic: Pater Noster in Proto-Indo-European  (Read 89 times)

Offline FlatAssembler

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Pater Noster in Proto-Indo-European
« on: August 08, 2017, 09:10:57 AM »
Hey, guys! How would you translate the Lord's prayer to Proto-Indo-European? Here is my solution:
ph2ter nos, kwis dyewi h1esi!
kjekjluyeh1t h1noh3mn tebhye.
h1sieh1s h3regjs.
bhuh2ih1end kwih2 tuh2 welh1si.
nebhesu h1ereykwe.
kwih2 nos ne h1senti dhogwhey tosmi deh3dhi. (Proto-Indo-European didn't have a word for bread, I've tried to translate this line as: "Give us what we need for today.")
bheh2gdhikwe leykwoneh2 nos,
kwom weykwe bheh2gmos leykwetrmos nos.
sentme ne drtomos,
solh2eskwe nsme trnomos.
What do you think about it?

Offline FlatAssembler

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Re: Pater Noster in Proto-Indo-European
« Reply #1 on: August 09, 2017, 06:10:29 AM »
Any answers?

Offline Daniel

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Re: Pater Noster in Proto-Indo-European
« Reply #2 on: August 09, 2017, 02:20:58 PM »
I'm away from my computer for a bit (trip for a conference) or I'd look into this a little. There are a number of creative/amateur/linguist/hobbyist recordings of PIE on YouTube and various entries with that text on Wikipedia. Have you tried searching for it? I imagine it's out there, at varying quality levels. The main reason more PIE texts don't exist is the limited information we have about syntax. Usually Schleicher's tale is used instead for PIE specifically for traditional reasons but the Lord's Prayer is so common someone must have attempted it.
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Offline FlatAssembler

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Re: Pater Noster in Proto-Indo-European
« Reply #3 on: August 10, 2017, 02:47:03 AM »
Quote
The main reason more PIE texts don't exist is the limited information we have about syntax.
Well, we can make some reliable guesses. Languages with such a complicated morphology almost always have a free word order. The preference was, given the known grammars of old Indo-European languages, either SVO or SOV. It's also a well-known thing that it had postpositions. The only somewhat unjustified assumption I had to make was that "all" goes with plural (as in Latin "Omnia mea mecum porto."), rather than singular (as in English or Croatian).
Quote
Usually Schleicher's tale is used instead for PIE specifically for traditional reasons but the Lord's Prayer is so common someone must have attempted it.
I am aware of that. I wanted to see if I know enough Indo-European linguistics to make my own version.
« Last Edit: August 10, 2017, 03:38:27 AM by FlatAssembler »

Offline Daniel

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Re: Pater Noster in Proto-Indo-European
« Reply #4 on: August 10, 2017, 10:24:31 AM »
Yes, interesting attempt.

As for syntax, it seems that traditionally Indo-Europeanists are not very inclined to guess about it or attempt a reconstruction. I'm not saying it's a bad idea to try though, especially just as an exercise.


On the other hand, the reason for using the Lord's Prayer is because it already exists in so many languages because it (or more of the bible) has already been translated for other reasons. So reconstructing it sort of goes against that although it helps to then compare to the other languages, so there's nothing wrong with it in that sense. Something else to consider is the universal declaration of human rights, which is preferred by some when it is available in a language. Of course who knows whether that would be culturally coherent in this case!
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Offline FlatAssembler

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Re: Pater Noster in Proto-Indo-European
« Reply #5 on: August 10, 2017, 10:43:30 AM »
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Yes, interesting attempt.
So, do you think it's a correct translation, given your knowledge of Indo-European linguistics?

Offline Daniel

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Re: Pater Noster in Proto-Indo-European
« Reply #6 on: August 11, 2017, 03:04:52 PM »
I'm not an Indo-European expert per se, but it looks like a plausible attempt to me. That's as much as I can really comment, unfortunately.

All I could really add would be: is there a word for 'rations' or 'meal' that might work better than just 'what we need'?
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Offline FlatAssembler

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Re: Pater Noster in Proto-Indo-European
« Reply #7 on: August 12, 2017, 02:14:19 AM »
There are. But I think that "daily (or everlasting, or necessairy, or however you want to translate 'epiousios') bread" was a metonymy for "what we need for today".