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General Linguistics => Linguist's Lounge => Topic started by: Rock100 on February 24, 2020, 04:48:57 PM

Title: Do you rhyme “good” with “food”?
Post by: Rock100 on February 24, 2020, 04:48:57 PM
Hello. Do you rhyme “good” with “food”? Personally I do pronounce the different vowels in these words, I do know that the two shall not make a rhyme and I do my best to look as if I understand it. So, what is about you?
Thanks.
Title: Re: Do you rhyme “good” with “food”?
Post by: Daniel on February 24, 2020, 05:22:17 PM
For a native English speaker, they're completely different vowels. Food /u/ is a long, tense vowel, while good /ʊ/ is a short, lax vowel pronounced in a less extreme way.

To relate this to some of your recent posts, this distinction is about as different as Russian soft/hard vowels (that is, it's really the following vowels that differ, rather than the consonants themselves).

If you don't distinguish them, you will sound foreign but probably will still be understood in context, in the same way that a foreign Russian speaker would be understood if they don't distinguish soft/hard sounds consistently.

To give another comparison, this is actually the same distinction as beat /i/ (long, tense) and bit /ɪ/ (short, lax, more in the center of the mouth). It's a relevant and clear contrast for native speakers, but non-native speakers can still be understood. It's also a typical example of a joke about learning English, where you want to be sure not to pronounce "sheet" or "beach" with /ɪ/!

There are also exact minimal pairs you can use, rather than these not quite equivalent examples. Here are some:
who'd vs. hood
shoed/shooed vs. should
cooed vs. could
suit vs. soot
fool vs. full
etc.

(And not that I should need to say it, but never rely on English spelling for anything except a rough guess about how a word might be pronounced. For a variety of historical reasons, including original dialectal variation and then later merging of spellings, along with other shifts, and just general inconsistency, forms like "oo" may indicate a variety of pronunciations.)

[Note: I'm writing this from the perspective of General American English. The specific pronunciation may vary in other dialects, although I don't know of any English variety that does not distinguish these sounds.]
Title: Re: Do you rhyme “good” with “food”?
Post by: Rock100 on February 24, 2020, 06:05:10 PM
Thanks.
> If you don't distinguish them
I do distinguish them. And I believe I can pronounce them as a native American if I do my best (many thanks to zillions of professional courses, discusses and fights in the Internet). But I do rhyme them. It may not be because I still do not pronounce them correctly. It is most likely I am the one who we say about as a bear stepped on his ear. I do rhyme them if I hear a native English speaker.
Let us consider a verse you probably do not know:
We believed we'd catch the rainbow
Ride the wind to the sun
Sail away on ships of wonder
But life's not a wheel
With chains made of steel
So bless me

And these people tell me that good and food do not make a rhyme! To my ear, it is the impeccable music that makes English verses to sound somehow rhymed. You just have no choice – you have to write brilliant music for your hits.
But there is still a chance that I have gotten used to extremely structured and overregulated rules of Russian versification and just do not notice the nuances of vowels in good and food. Or, probably, a bear…
By the way, you have told they are completely different vowels (no doubt) but have not told if YOU rhyme them.
In the other words, there are prescriptive rules and the way you feel it. There are Russians words I do know I pronounce or use incorrectly. I could do them right but I would feel uncomfortable. I believe I know nearly everything about good and food pronunciation and versification so I will rather know what natives feel about them.
Title: Re: Do you rhyme “good” with “food”?
Post by: Daniel on February 24, 2020, 06:41:38 PM
Quote
And these people tell me that good and food do not make a rhyme!
They do not rhyme in a strict sense, and that's clear to native speakers. However, they are somewhat similar, so you can get away with it if you're not looking for a perfect rhyme (this is sometimes called a slant rhyme), which can be used intentionally or just creatively if it's hard to make an exact rhyme. But again, these words don't rhyme. It's like trying to make a rhyme with "food" and "foot". It might work out OK, but it's not a strict rhyme.
Title: Re: Do you rhyme “good” with “food”?
Post by: Rock100 on February 24, 2020, 07:21:38 PM
Great. Thank you.
And what do you, natives, do if you have no other choice but to rhyme good and food? If say food comes first in a verse, do you change the vowel in good to be the long u too? We may mangle the pronunciation of the problem word to make it fit the rhyme in Russian (it is considered a major fault and does not happen that often). Or do you prefer to keep the pronunciation right and have that slant rhyme? Do you ever use the trick with the mangled pronunciation at all?
Title: Re: Do you rhyme “good” with “food”?
Post by: Daniel on February 25, 2020, 07:52:06 AM
Generally slant rhymes would just be lazy rhymes that are "close enough". This happens a lot in songs, if you want to try to find some examples of people pronouncing it (easier than finding examples of recorded poetry online, probably).

So, no, the pronunciation of one word would not be changed to match the other. One trick, of course, would be not pronouncing either word very clearly, or just pronouncing both very quickly (or covering them up with enough music in the background) so that the listener doesn't notice the lack of rhyming.

The only way someone would say something like "food is good" as /fud ɪz gud/ would be as a play on words that is obviously 'incorrect' use of language, with the same kind of effect as a pun.
Title: Re: Do you rhyme “good” with “food”?
Post by: waive15 on June 07, 2020, 09:54:17 AM
Hi,

"Spelling tells you what the word is.

The pronunciation of the word depends on what dialect of English you speak.

..."

Leslie Harrison, former ESL Teacher

https://www.quora.com/In-English-what-is-the-relationship-between-spelling-and-pronunciations?share=1


I as a foreigner rhyme good with food.
Title: Re: Do you rhyme “good” with “food”?
Post by: waive15 on June 07, 2020, 10:22:25 AM
"...

For pronunciation the best general rule is, to consider those as the most elegant speakers who deviate least from the written words.

..."

Samuel Johnson, "A Grammar of the English Tongue"

https://johnsonsdictionaryonline.com/a-grammar-of-the-english-tongue/


I paraphrased Dr Jonson to myself then: For pronunciation the best general rule is, to consider those as the most elegant speakers who pronounce the written words in the most elegant way = A word must be pronounced in the most elegant way (and elegance is the key. This rule gives the understanding and the freedom of/in speaking English.   (What is elegant in one dialect/language is not in another dialect/language. I speak on my own dialect of English, ... .)).   

===
* there are Vowels (""short" by definition"). One Vowel makes one syllable. Vowels are in pairs relative to each other: Close/Open; Front("soft")/Back("hard); Not_round/Round

* there are Vowel_shorts. They cannot make a syllable.

* there are Long_Vowels:
   * Vowel normally ( : ) elongated becomes Long_Vowel;
   * Vowel elongated with Vowel_short(-s) becomes Long_Vowel.

---
* in a syllable, [r], [l], [m], [n] are
   * Consonants when they are before Vowel;
   * Vowel_shorts when they are after Vowel or Vowel_short
/the same is for [y/j/i] and [w/u]( just different notation)/
---

* Vowel_shorts: schwa_short, i_short, u_short, r_short, l_short, m_short, n_short



/if I didn't do it better I did it different:

http://linguistforum.com/outside-of-the-box/simple-sentence-pronunciation/

/
===


P.S.
"Language is the dress of thought; every time you talk your mind is on parade."
Samuel Johnson

Johnson is "Ma Man"! Also Sir Isaac Pitman gave me some good ideas.
Title: Re: Do you rhyme “good” with “food”?
Post by: Forbes on June 09, 2020, 01:46:09 AM
I don't know of any English variety that does not distinguish these sounds.]

I knew someone who came from the Edinburgh area who rhymed "good" and "food", pronouncing both with short vowels.
Title: Re: Do you rhyme “good” with “food”?
Post by: Rock100 on June 09, 2020, 07:16:41 AM
> I knew someone who came from the Edinburgh area who rhymed
> "good" and "food", pronouncing both with short vowels.
Yeah, this is very easy. But I do pronounce them differently and I just rhyme the long U and the other U sounds whoever pronounces them. I do know that some people especially the ones that start with the forbidden in the US now double u letter do distinguish coral, pink, magenta, maroon, burgundy, aubum, mahogany, scarlet, carmine, cardinal, rose, etc., but they are all red for the total majority of males. So the long U and the other U sounds are a kind of all red for me. I have just tried to find out here if the natives do distinguish them “such much” or just show off to look cool.
Title: Re: Do you rhyme “good” with “food”?
Post by: waive15 on June 09, 2020, 09:22:09 PM
Hi,

interface

...

5. a thing or circumstance that enables separate and sometimes incompatible elements to coordinate effectively

...

https://www.dictionary.com/browse/interface

When one uses a computer he or she uses computer interface - mouse, keyboard, desktop, folders, ...
There is one logic on the one side of the interface and there is another logic(computer science) on the other side.

The same is with sounds - when one speaks he or she uses simple logic of sounds and their relations and on the other hand there is some science.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/English_phonology

The same is with consciousness - on one side there is one logic in which one refers to him- or herself just as Thing(Observer/Speaker) and on the other side scientists talk about brains, neurons, ... - some different logic.

And so on and so on...

I like very much A - E relation. It gives me(simplifies for me) so much.

Maybe you will like Mind Your Language (TV Series 1977-1986) :

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gp6Zki2run4&list=PLRWydu1kSgTLV_mZ_E4Txtim589ZEsEon&index=3&t=0s
Title: Re: Do you rhyme “good” with “food”?
Post by: Rock100 on June 10, 2020, 04:39:08 AM
> Maybe you will like Mind Your Language (TV Series 1977-1986)
Wow! I will probably like it too if you do not mind. Thank you. I have never heard of this series. At least the first episode is just brilliant. Though the British accent is hardly understandable, the rests sound OK.
Title: Re: Do you rhyme “good” with “food”?
Post by: waive15 on June 10, 2020, 06:23:33 AM
Hi, Rock100,

I am glad that you like it.

---
Here is scouse (formally known as Liverpool English):

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3bZKLyra-pk

I find scouse very pleasant to my ear. I have listened to Rob Ager for hours - he speaks in scouse and about films. I like them both.
---

If you watch Trainspotting (1996) you will hear scots. The story takes place in Edinburgh,  Scotland.
I used English subtitles. I hope that you'll find that dialect amusing.

---

Here is Thoughy2 - a YouTube channel. I like how that guy speaks. I have been following him for years.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HXJ1athZrUU

---

Here is RP (received pronunciation). I believe Adam Curtis speaks on it because he studied in University of Oxford and he has worked for the BBC throughout his career. I have watched all of his documentaries, some films more than once.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v-npoz1SgRQ

---

Here is Prof. Dr. Jurgen Handke (a german, I suppose). I took lessons from him about English.

The Great Vowel Shift

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zyhZ8NQOZeo

---


Thank you and have a nice day.
Title: Re: Do you rhyme “good” with “food”?
Post by: Rock100 on June 10, 2020, 07:59:14 AM
> Here is scouse (formally known as Liverpool English)
I wished I could be able to take pleasure from the nuances of the British English dialects and accents as you do. But I just do not hear them. Or I rather hear them as a peculiarities of a concrete speaker. For example, this very gentleman speaks normal British English from my point of view. Yes, he does pronounce -ing with all the letters but I refer it to his personal peculiarity rather than a more general accent feature. For me it is more like when some Americans say “ompen” for “open”. I do believe it is not an accent but something personal because, as a rule, they do not know about the feature of their pronunciation until somebody in their group tells them.
And I know almost nothing about British accents – there are too many of them for the poor foreigner who had a chance to speak to natives just several times in his life. American dialects and accents are much easier from this point of view.

> If you watch Trainspotting (1996) you will hear scots.
I do not like the Scots sound. [prodookshen] and things like that. Some management of the company I worked for were Scots. They came here once in a while to chat with us, drink vodka and play football. I was desperate trying to understand them. Their speech sounded like a mockery. A Londoner standing alongside appeased me saying that he did not understand them too though I believe he just tried to look polite. Despite the language Scots appeared to be very nice people.

> Here is Thoughy2 - a YouTube channel. I like how that guy speaks.
“Marafon” – I almost bet he is from the South of London. “Marafon”, “birfday” – they like such things.

> Here is RP (received pronunciation). I believe Adam Curtis speaks on it
> because he studied in University of Oxford and he has worked for the BBC
> throughout his career.
Yeah, it sounds artificial but is the must for a news anchor.

> Here is Prof. Dr. Jurgen Handke (a german, I suppose).
You are right. And this is the only video I was aware of for years. Personally I hear a very strong foreign accent.
Title: Re: Do you rhyme “good” with “food”?
Post by: Rock100 on June 11, 2020, 02:12:14 PM
Rhyming slang! What a series!!! I have never heard about such a phenomenon. I had asked an Englishman once to give me the examples of some cockney. I knew about some phonetics (like dropping the “h” sound) peculiarities but he gave me some examples of their lexicon just describing what things like dustbin lids mean and there were no explanation why. But I can speak my own cockney with this series now.
I wonder if such a thing exists in other languages. All Russian slang, for example, is about genitals (exaggeration). Though there are some exception and it does have the “turret” for the “head” but these words do not rhyme and shall arise semantic associations only.
And, by the way, what does the name of the series “Mind your language” really mean? I cannot get rid of the impression that “Mind your language” is a phrase a person says nearly before starting to fight. A kind of:
- You are the stupid idiot.
- Mind your language!
I do know the literal meaning of all the words but the phrase has only negative (as above) connotation for me.
Title: Re: Do you rhyme “good” with “food”?
Post by: waive15 on June 12, 2020, 05:56:27 AM
Hi, Rock100,

I am very happy that this series made such an impression to you. It did to me too.

Well, there isn't language by its self/own. "Language" is just a habit like walking and eating and ... (so on). You don't pick a "language" - you pick a habit (good or bad).

---


Here is

Mind your language (all of the 1st season. The 1st season is always the best.)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8xDqf0K4_uI&list=PLRWydu1kSgTLV_mZ_E4Txtim589ZEsEon&index=6&t=0s

I enjoy British wit with you.

wave15
Title: Re: Do you rhyme “good” with “food”?
Post by: Rock100 on June 17, 2020, 03:02:53 PM
What a series!
I do not have a job, I do not have money and I do not know the language. What shall I do? Ah! I will marry the second woman because my first wife cannot have children!!!

-- I went on holidays to visit all my family.
-- Ah, you went to Bombay.
-- Bombay? No, Birmingham.

1978!!! Brits, I will miss you.

P.S. The buffet works without a cash register in the school. Was/is it legal?
Title: Re: Do you rhyme “good” with “food”?
Post by: waive15 on September 16, 2020, 05:12:49 AM
Hi,

If we are still on pronunciation then the following might seem interesting.



RP (Received pronunciation) vs POSH ENGLISH The Differences and the HISTORY Explained.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g0qShxkuS7Q

---

After this short lecture "Jeeves and Wooster" would be appropriate.

Jeeves And Wooster — Jeeves Takes Charge (S01E01) [subtitles] (hit the subtitles button)

 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y-Wlaw78JN4



Have a nice day.