Author Topic: (The) Three trifles in/of/about Russian  (Read 20596 times)

Online waive15

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(The) Three trifles in/of/about Russian
« on: January 29, 2020, 06:20:25 AM »
Hi,

Russian is just an ordinary language - nothing more, nothing less. But Language is a political matter. There are political books of grammar but are there political books of mathematics?!



Trifle 1:

           Grammatical case - it is in Russian, Latin, German, English, ... But while Nominative, Accusative, Dative, Vocative, Prepositional, Locative, even Ablative are bon ton Instrumental(bad name) stands out.

Man found out the Recursion. So, what is the complementary of the Recursion. Computer scientists give Iteration, that's okay, but what actually is Iteration and is there another complement of recursion? Maybe DEFINITION?!

Anyway, that is not important. There is something which is so obvious that it is not named or named differently in different languages. Square which has a square is ... well, a recursion, but square next to square ? - what would the name be? Plus, you have 1st and 2nd square = there is an order! /welcome to Instrumetal case/

Some verbs in Russian have "object" in Instrumental case. /better say nothing than something bad - no comment/
/it will be useful once again to check out "simple sentence. zero dimensional space"/



Trifle 2:

          The verb in Russian has not a past simple form. It is past active participle(INDECLINABLE) used instead.
Which means that they use an ADJECTIVE which comes from a verb, that is an ADJECTIVE!!! Usually adjectives come after/with the verb BE. This gives 3 possibilities:

 1st: past active participle is used instead of a past simple form of the verb;

 2nd: sum/esse(BE) is missed before past active participle = have done /by meaning/
/which raises the question: DONE is what after HAVE, past active or past passive participle/

 3rd: In the 3rd conditional in Russian, the past active participle IS NOT THE MAIN VERB. It is the ADJECTIVE after the verb BE(быть/есмь) = [had]/[would have] done

//old woman young woman illusion - in grammars: what is the MAIN VERB? One would ask: what is actually drawn on the paper? There are NO AUXILIARY VERBS!!! One sees once one verb as MAIN,  the other time the other verb as MAIN. It is intentionally made the second verb after the BE to FEEL/LOOK LIKE AN ADJECTIVE.// I always take the auxiliary verb as main, but I understand and the other point of view. I look once at an OLD WOMAN and then at an YOUNG WOMAN.//




Trifle 3:

           бы IS NOT A PARTICLE!!! IT IS THE MAIN VERB OF THE CLAUSE!!! It is the past simple tense form of быть which lost its (suffixes and) verb endings and NOW it is unrecognizable as a MAIN VERB!!! In бы merged both PERFECTIVE and IMPERFECTIVE PAST FORMS OF BE(быть)!!! Which leads us to 3rd conditional:

 * in the 1st event бы is IMPEFECTIVE(if-clause);

 * in the 2nd event бы is PERFECTIVE(then-clause) - that PERFECTIVE-ness gives the FUTURE-ness according to the IMPERFECTIVE-ness(if-clause)





Thank you and have a nice day.

Online waive15

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Re: (The) Three trifles in/of/about Russian
« Reply #1 on: January 30, 2020, 12:40:11 PM »
Hi,

English - German - Russian
/white  -   gray    -   black/ or /black - gray - white/

The point is that English and Russian are similar to each other like black - white. Russian is at the beginning, English is at the end and German is in the middle of a transition/verb endings, case endings, phrasal verbs, in perfect tense: English uses "HAVE", Russian - "BE" but German "BE" and "HAVE". Definite articles:

that(the) - das - [тот] (it is even one word: th/d/т; t/s/т) /.



I did it my way   / Frank Sinatra/    -  I use "russian" logic (Instrumental case) and derive the meaning/translate.



In English one can think in terms of Nominative, Vocative, Accusative, Dative, Instrumental, Genitive. It is even better that there are no case endings. Actually it may be easier to study the three languages at the same time by one grammar than by 3 different grammars and one by one.

Isn't it an irony that German looks more messy/and heavy/(look at "WERDEN": they use it for simple future and passive voice. They cannot use "BE" in passive voice because they use it in perfect tense with some verbs and past passive and past active participles look the same. I don't like "WERDEN" in passive voice. Latin vert/ere  -  German werd/en  -  Russian vert/et' -  to turn)


Thank you and have a nice day.

Online waive15

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Re: (The) Three trifles in/of/about Russian
« Reply #2 on: June 30, 2020, 08:24:30 AM »
https://www.etymonline.com/search?q=-ed

"past-participle suffix of weak verbs, ... "

Maybe Russian and English verbs aren't so different after all (in past tense).

Online waive15

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Re: (The) Three trifles in/of/about Russian
« Reply #3 on: August 24, 2020, 08:14:45 AM »
Hi,

About the verb to be and conditionals in Russian I was heavily influenced by

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1NOWtVKE8dEmbFUgbs5TbU-W-4tx7AYEg/view?usp=sharing


Online waive15

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Re: (The) Three trifles in/of/about Russian
« Reply #4 on: September 15, 2020, 05:47:51 AM »
Hi,

Russian, in a sense that a word may "work like" a preposition, ... , a word-forming element, is almost the same as English. One can take any (broadly said/speaking) Russian preposition and use it as a word-forming element(= prefix (as a prefix)). English is a way ahead in that matter but Russian is not far behind. The same is with the German (and other languages).

For example:

за (preposition)(in Russian)

https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%D0%B7%D0%B0#Etymology_2

за- (word-forming element = prefix)(Russian)

https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%D0%B7%D0%B0-

===

One is inclined to notice that "real" prepositions which work as places in 3d(2d, 1d, 1d(Time)) also work as directions in that spaces (with verbs of motion/action (and maybe not)). And they are referred to as prepositions and adverbs in different occasions and languages.

But there are some/many "imaginary" axes/aspects(not visual, ... (not through senses)). Verb (as a Name of a "Situation"(actually the "Situation"-Event depends on the Observer)) has many axes/aspects/dimensions/... . Verb("Situation") is more complicated than the ordinary Thing (there is much more to describe). 
 
Here come(-s) Preposition(as a word/Name) (place in 3d ("through senses")) (/) and Direction (as a word/Name in 3d ("through senses")). It (they) become(-s) Handy as a (word/)verb-forming element both in "real" and "non real"/imaginary axes/aspects/... .

And this is just a simple(a simplification)/a practical approach. There is "Language"-Encoding but there isn't Language(only Consciousness at work).

===



Thank you and have a nice day.


Note:

I have made a mistake. I used "suffix" instead of (I meant) prefix. I am sorry.

===
The questions are:

 1. Why Russians use суффикс(suffix) instead of на-/став/-ка(suffix) when they use при-/став/-ка(prefix)?


наставить

https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%D0%BD%D0%B0%D1%81%D1%82%D0%B0%D0%B2%D0%B8%D1%82%D1%8C



наставка (suffix) = настав/ить + -ка



приставка (prefix)

https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%D0%BF%D1%80%D0%B8%D1%81%D1%82%D0%B0%D0%B2%D0%BA%D0%B0

---

 2.  Why to use -фф- when -ф- is enough? (why be holier than the Pope?)
 
English speakers pronounce suffix with one f.

https://www.dictionary.com/browse/suffix?s=t

===



Once again I apologize. 
« Last Edit: September 16, 2020, 03:18:25 AM by waive15 »

Online waive15

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Re: (The) Three trifles in/of/about Russian
« Reply #5 on: December 04, 2020, 03:22:07 AM »
Hi,

I am sorry that the link does not work. Here is a new link. I hope that it will last.

The verb is at the end of the book, at page 59.
The book is in 1868 Russian. "Grammar of old Russian - word forms" is given as a substitution. I can not give a good translation of the name.

Kolosov M. A. - Grammar of old Russian - word forms  (1868)

https://yadi.sk/i/pmR-5RatP2UlYw

===

John has a pen. John's pen is on the table.

Possessiveness - Genitive case (Recursion (Embedding) - much later abstract naming) is dear to a human. So it was named.

John has a pen. The pen has an ink. The ink has a colour. ...

But

Oneth, Twoth, Threeth, Fourth, Fifth, ... 

Next-ness (Iteration ( ...)) is so Obvious that a few gave themselves a trouble to name it in language (as 1st and 2nd = a name in Nominative or any other case AND a name in Instrumental(the 2nd in the same state/action as the 1st)).


Instrumental case in Eighteenth century's Russian

https://yadi.sk/i/61wrVHWcwE4Nmw


"Dissertation presented at Uppsala University to be publicly examined in Ihresalen, Engelska
parken, Thunbergsvägen 3L, Uppsala, Saturday, December 15, 2012 at 10:15 for the degree
of Doctor of Philosophy. The examination will be conducted in English.

Abstract
Михайлов, Н. (Mikhaylov, N.) 2012. Творительный падеж в русском языке XVIII века.
(With a Summary in English: The Instrumental Case in Eighteenth-Century Russian.)
Acta Universitatis Upsaliensis. Studia Slavica Upsaliensia 47. 296 pp. Uppsala.
ISBN 978-91-554-8526-9.

The aim of this dissertation is to describe the sphere of use of the Russian Instrumental case in
written sources from the eighteenth century. The research is based on approximately 11,300
instances of the use of the Instrumental and almost 2,400 constructions with other cases,
excerpted from documents of various genres and styles. The corpus includes texts written by
forty eighteenth-century authors, and contains works of poetry and drama, literary prose,
letters, memoirs and learned tracts.

Previous studies of the Instrumental case have in the main dealt with the development of
the system of its meanings in the Old Russian period, or else have described its condition in
modern times. The present work attempts to systematise its most typical uses and to trace the
changes in the function of the Instrumental that took place during the period when a national
literary language was coming into being in Russia.

The research is primarily focused on the competition between the Instrumental case and
other means of expression of particular meanings. In particular it describes (with statistical
data) the variation in case forms within the predicate, with the function of an object, and also
of the agent in passive constructions.

A detailed description is given of those meanings of the Instrumental which are known
from the earliest period and still in active use in the eighteenth century, but nowadays per-
ceived as archaic. The most important of these are the Instrumental of cause, and also various
uses of the Instrumental without a preposition to indicate time or place.
..."

The paper is in Russian. It may be seen as the wandering Russians took to pin down the Next-ness (Instrumental case).

===



Have a nice day.

Offline Rock100

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Re: (The) Three trifles in/of/about Russian
« Reply #6 on: December 04, 2020, 08:09:27 PM »
> Abstract
> Михайлов, Н. (Mikhaylov, N.) 2012. Творительный падеж в русском языке XVIII века.
> (With a Summary in English: The Instrumental Case in Eighteenth-Century Russian.)
> Acta Universitatis Upsaliensis. Studia Slavica Upsaliensia 47. 296 pp. Uppsala.
> ISBN 978-91-554-8526-9.
Hm… This one looks a kind of interesting, thank you. Though some ideas look somewhat far-fetched (at least for me), for example, the nominative/instrumental case preference for the same expressions. So even the cited “The Historical Dictionary of Russian Writers” demonstrates some inconsistency on the issue. I also believe that the total majority of official writings were professionally edited and might demonstrate a prescribed tendency (probably a short-lived one) rather than the real state of the art.
But it is a fun to think about indeed.

Online waive15

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Re: (The) Three trifles in/of/about Russian
« Reply #7 on: December 07, 2020, 12:06:03 PM »
Hi,



Oscar Benton, Bensonhurst Blues

Bay Parkway wonder
You're such a success
Your pretty secretary, ha
She say(-s) you are the best

Your face always smiling
Say(-s) you sure paid your dues
But I know inside
You've got the Bensonhurst blues

Those custom-made ciggies
That you offer to me pretend
And pretend to care about my family

And those pictures on your desk
All them lies that you abuse   (abuse - verb used with object (= abuse'')) you (with) lies abuse all them (people in the pictures on your desk)
                                                                                                                 1st     +    2nd of the Doer(-s) /Instrumental case(?) or missing with/
                                                                                                                 that relates to all them (?)
Do they know you suffer
From the Bensonhurst blues

Your grandmother's accent
Still embarrasses you
You're even ashamed
Of the French you once knew

You're part of the chance now
They break you making the news
But I know inside
You've got the Bensonhurst blues

But thanks for the lesson
Cause the life that I choose
Won't make me feel like living
With the Bensonhurst blues

And don't, don't try to write me
And don't bother to call
Cause I'll be in conference
Merry Christmas you all



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=si7Np5U0Y5M


"Merry Christmas you all"
« Last Edit: December 19, 2020, 06:13:35 AM by waive15 »

Online waive15

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Re: (The) Three trifles in/of/about Russian
« Reply #8 on: March 21, 2021, 08:01:17 AM »
John worked (as) (a) taxi driver.


John          is the Original (the First, "in front of the mirror") /Nominative case/

and

taxi driver  is the Image   (the Second, "in the mirror")          /Instrumental case/

are

parts of a Connection (the 1st - the 2nd (Non_Genitive Connection/Non_Genitive_is''))



===



Verb/Connection (as a Thing) - the Original (the First, "in front of the mirror")    /Nominative case/

and

something                            - the Image   (the Second, "in the mirror")           /Instrumental case/

are

parts of a Connection (the 1st - the 2nd (Non_Genitive Connection/Non_Genitive_is''))



Example:

ALL useful Russian DRINKING words + Slang!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LiU97u0OqBY

2:22 min.


пить залпом
/pit' zalpom/

пить - to drink /a verb/



залп - salvo, volley /a noun/

залпом - salvo, volley /in Instrumental case/

https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%D0%B7%D0%B0%D0%BB%D0%BF


Also one could notice that all prefixes in Russian verbs come/are/ from prepositions.


===


Instrumental case is a state of Existence of two Things (the 1st and the 2nd). It is a verb/Connection(Non_Genitive_is'' (two-valent verb)) which is left out (invisible). It is a verb/Connection which is encoded in a different way than the Verb (in the "Simple sentence") for simplicity. After all, "Simple sentence" (Name) is one defined verb (by its parts (the 1st (and the 2nd)), by exact moment (Tense), by ...) and the Speaker doesn't want too many verbs to hang around in the sentence.

Often Places and moments/stretches of Time are also in Instrumental case.
        /            as Things (SubSpaces)         /
« Last Edit: March 23, 2021, 10:00:16 AM by waive15 »

Online waive15

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Re: (The) Three trifles in/of/about Russian
« Reply #9 on: March 26, 2021, 03:48:28 AM »
Instrumental case

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Instrumental_case



-   the 1st  -  the 2nd (Non_Genitive Connection/Non_Genitive_is'') /the 2nd is the Instrument/

-   the 1st  -  the 2nd (Non_Genitive Connection/Non_Genitive_is'') /the 2nd is the Image/

-   the 1st  -  the 2nd (Non_Genitive Connection/Non_Genitive_is'') /the 2nd is Time, Place, .../
                                  /the 1st and the 2nd are just Companions/

-  "the 1st" - "the 2nd" (Equivalency (Connection)) /"the 1st" and "the 2nd" are Equivalent/

-   ... (?)

-   in some instances  the 1st is (probably could be) left out

Offline Rock100

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Re: (The) Three trifles in/of/about Russian
« Reply #10 on: March 27, 2021, 10:08:46 AM »
How come you come up with such tricky things?

> пить залпом
> /pit' zalpom/
>
> пить - to drink /a verb/
It is pretty good so far.

> залп - salvo, volley /a noun/
It is still good if we are talking about the etymology of the пить залпом. But we are on thin ice already.

> залпом - salvo, volley /in Instrumental case/
Nope. This is the adverb. And there is no an instrumental case unless you emphasize we are still talking about etymology nuances. I do not think Russians are even aware about salvos or volleys in пить залпом. They need to be asked to explain the origin of the idiom directly to begin to start thinking like you.
A correct instrumental case example will be “they were killed with the third salvo” – их убило третьим залпом – if you are interested.

Online waive15

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Re: (The) Three trifles in/of/about Russian
« Reply #11 on: May 29, 2021, 07:14:49 AM »
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