Author Topic: ant=VCC is that correct ?  (Read 5355 times)

Offline Daniel

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Re: ant=VCC is that correct ?
« Reply #15 on: October 23, 2014, 09:12:19 AM »
It's common knowledge for Arabic. You can look at a (linguistic, descriptive) grammar of Arabic for example.

You can also see this Wikipedia article:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pharyngealization
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Offline alm-alr

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Re: ant=VCC is that correct ?
« Reply #16 on: October 26, 2014, 02:49:25 AM »
here is an article ""Arabic Emphatics: Phonetic and Phonological Remarks """ The Author says
there is still argument about the secondary articulation of the Emphatics " precisely he said
"""Phonetically, while it is agreed that emphatic consonants articulation involves a coronal articulation, analyses of the secondary articulation varies from one study to another. Researchers have posited that emphatics are velarized (Trubetzkoy, 1969), uvularized in Jordanian Arabic (Zawaydeh, 1998) or pharyngealized in Iraqi Arabic (Ali & Daniloff, 1927; Gianni & Pettorino, 1982).""""""
What is your comment??
https://www.dropbox.com/s/ooqcpb8gs8daocp/Arabic%20Emphatics%20Phonetic%20and%20Phonological%20Remarks.pdf?dl=0

That's why i said it could be that ط  can be t+q  where "q" is  voiceless Uvular stop .

Offline Daniel

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Re: ant=VCC is that correct ?
« Reply #17 on: October 26, 2014, 07:50:02 PM »
Dialectal/language variation is certainly possible. I don't know much about the variation across dialects, but I do know that at least in some places the secondary articulation is pharyngealization.
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Offline alm-alr

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Re: ant=VCC is that correct ?
« Reply #18 on: October 27, 2014, 03:26:21 AM »
jdr33  you're right  ......you're right  i think i have proved it with simple experiment
do you remember when you told me """"The phonetic features are well established. One modern way to show this is to use fMRI to give us a modern equivalent to x-rays. Certainly it isn't exactly the same as 1+1=2 due to articulators interaction and so forth but it's close. I don't see how it would be q because that is a stop. """""
First of all   don't tell me it's a silly or worthless  experiment as you told before about the Praat  experiment  :) :) :) :) :)
I used "Audacity sound recorder/editor : it is fantastic multi track  software from sourceforge.net  ""
I recorded the sound of 't' as normally pronounced on one track , on other track I recorded the sound of "؟ ain" but with the tongue on same articulation of 't' "without releasing 't' of course ""
since Audacity has  a good feature to move the waveform on its own  track as you want  ""left or right"" ,patiently i found the point where the two consonants started simultaneously , here was my proof   the sound was Ar. [tˤ]
I repeat the same procedure with "q" it doesn't produce the tˤ exactly but some thing i can't recognize .
Here is the results for both experiments , first link  "t" with "ain" and the 2nd "t' with "q"
https://www.dropbox.com/s/yp8mc37skw9rv8y/t%2Bain%20%28with%20tongue%20always%20in%20oneposition%29.wav?dl=0

2nd link :
https://www.dropbox.com/s/s0v4lf2d7gabsbs/t%2Bq.wav?dl=0

 I am glad for this result unless  something beyond my understanding to phonetics  could be said , but if it's phonetically accepted then  "all rights  reserved"" to me  :) :) :) :) :)
« Last Edit: October 27, 2014, 03:37:12 AM by alm-alr »