Author Topic: Some English structures  (Read 9951 times)

Offline GoT

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Some English structures
« on: July 12, 2014, 04:33:55 PM »
Hi!
 I cannot get my head around the analysis of some English structures.
 I will write some examples in order to show you my problem.

 Example 1: We are crazy.
 My analysis is the following: "crazy" is an adjective that refers to the subject "We"; "are" is the Present Simple of the linking verb "to be".
 But what about the following sentences?

 1) We are seen as crazy. Here I would apply the same kind of analysis:"crazy"=adjective which refers to the subject "we",but what about the verb "be" used to link an adjective (or noun) to the subject ? I imagine that it is used implicitly in this kind of sentence or is my interpretation utterly wrong?

 2) You see us as crazy."crazy"=adjective which refers to the object "us", and again I would say that the verb "to be" is used implicitly.


 Here is another example with a similar structure:

 1) We are cruel. "cruel"= adjective that refers to the subject"we"; "are" Present Simple of the linking verb to "be"

 -We strike you as cruel. = "cruel"= adjective which refers to the subject "we" and again I would say that the verb "to be" is used implicitly.

 ...and here is the last one with another structure and a noun instead of an adjective.

 1) They were lunatics. "lunatics"= plural noun which refers to the subject "they"; "were"= Past Simple of the linking verb "to be"

 - They were written off as lunatics. "lunatics"= plural noun which refers to the subject "they"; the verb "to be" is used implicitly.
 -We wrote them off as lunatics. "lunatics"= plural noun which refers to the object "them" and again the verb "to be" is used implicitly.

 So, my questions are:
 1) Is there anything wrong with my interpretation?

 2) If my attempts are correct, could I safely say that whenever I have "subject+a form of the verb BE+ adjective ", I will also have "be seen as+

 adjective" and whenever I have "subject+ a form of the verb BE+ noun", I will also have "be seen as+ noun"?

 3) If so, can I apply the same kind of interpretation to other similar structures ,such as "be viewed as..."; "be written off as..."," be thought of

 as..." "strike someone as..."," come across as...","be classified as..."," be defined as...", "be described as...", "be depicted as...", "be portrayed as...", "be looked upon

 as...", "be labelled as...","be branded as...","be deemed (to be)..."/ "be regarded as..." and their active forms (view someone as.../ write someone off as.../ think of someone as...and so on)just to name a few?

Offline Daniel

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Re: Some English structures
« Reply #1 on: July 12, 2014, 07:36:10 PM »
What theory are you trying to use? Or are you just trying to understand these phrases? As far as I can tell you do seem to understand them (in terms of basic meaning and usage). But we'd need more details on what you are trying to do to analyze them if we give you specific comments.

For example, "refer" has a very specific meaning in some theories that is not properly applied to adjectives (only nouns). I know what you mean, but I don't know what you expect to accomplish with it.
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Offline GoT

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Re: Some English structures
« Reply #2 on: July 13, 2014, 10:15:44 AM »
Unfortunately, I do not have a theory, since I am not familiar with linguistics. My hypothesis is only based on what I usually read. 
SUBJECT COMPLEMENT
As far as I know, in the sentence “I am a good person” the noun phrase “a good person” is a subject complement since it further describes the subject “I” and “ am” is the Present Simple of the linking verb “to be”.
I also know that other linking verbs can be used in the same way (become, turn, remain, stay, appear, seem, look, feel, taste, smell, sound)
OBJECT COMPLEMENT
Example 1) You are driving me crazy.
In this sentence I would say that the adjective “crazy” is an object complement which refers to the object “me”, not to the subject “you”.
(Not many verbs which might be used with an object complement  come to mind.)
 I would say that the following structures could be used with an adjective or a noun used as an object complement:
Example 2) He made me angry. (“angry” adjective= object complement which refers to the object “me”)
                3) The  government declared firearms illegal. (“illegal” adjective= object complement which refers     
                to the object “firearms”).
However, I would say that in the passive form the situation changes ,but I do not think that in the following sentences a linking verb is used so I do not even know whether the denomination subject complement is correct and whether the following sentences might be used in the passive form. (Since example 1) and 2) sound strange I will put * after them and (?) after the denomination subject complement )
Example 1) I am being driven crazy. *( adjective crazy= subject complement (?) which refers to the subject “I”  )
Example 2) I was made angry * (adjective angry= subject complement (?) which refers to the subject “I”)
Example 3) Firearms were  declared illegal by the government. (adjective illegal= subject complement (?) which refers to the subject “Firearms”).
 VERB TURN
I also know that with the verb “turn” we can use both a subject complement and an object complement.
Example 1) Great Salt Lake turned pink. (the adjective “pink” is a subject complement which refers to the subject “Great Salt Lake”, turn is the linking verb )
Example 2) Tiny organisms turned Great Salt Lake pink. (The adjective “pink” still refers to “Great Salt Lake”, but here “pink” is an object complement since “Great Salt Lake” is the object, but in this sentence turn is not used as a linking verb, but as a transitive verb . )
As far as the verb “turn” is concerned I have another doubt ,with the adjective I would say
“Subject +turn (used as a linking verb)+ adjective”, but with a noun I would say “subject+ turn+ into+ noun or noun phrase”.
Example 1) I turned evil. (“evil” =adjective used as subject complement which refers to the subject “I” and “turned” is the linking verb )
Example 2) I turned into an evil person (“an evil person”= noun phrase used as subject  complement which refers to the subject “I”).
If I said *“I turned an evil person ”, I would say that something is missing.
“I turned an evil person into a good one.” (But here I would say that “turn” is used as a transitive verb and the noun phrase “an evil person” is the object).
CONSIDER SOMETHING/ SOMEONE (TO BE)…AND FIND  SOMETHING/ SOMEONE (TO BE)…
With the structures “consider something/ someone (to be) something” and “find something/ someone (to be) something” I have found evidence that the verb “to be” is used implicitly and explicitly.
Examples: 1) We take our work seriously, we consider ourselves professional.
                   2) Since we take our work seriously, our clients find us professional.
In the following sentences , I would say that the adjective “professional” is  used as an object complement since it refers  to the objects “ourselves” and “us” respectively. Here, “to be” is used implicitly.
In the following examples, it is used explicitly:
 Examples: 3)  We take our work seriously, we consider ourselves to be professional.
                    4) Since we take our work seriously, our clients find us to be professional.
I would say that 1) and 3) have the same meaning and the same goes for 2) ad 4).

Examples with the passive form.
Example 1) Since we take our work seriously, we are considered (to be)professional. (adjective “professional”= subject complement (?) which refers to the subject “we”).
Example 2) Our works were found (to be) original by many critics * (adjective original= subject complement (?)which refers to the subject “our works”).

SENTENCES WITH RELATIVE CLAUSES 

Example 1) Here are some books which I find (to be ) original. * (adjective “original” which refers to “some books”, but I do not know what to call it  )
Example 2) There are people whom we may find (to be ) professional . * (adjective “professional” which refers to “people” and again I do not know what to call it).
Example 3) I have some books which you might find (to be) original. * (adjective “original” which refers to the object “some books”, I do not know what to call the adjective “original”).
Example 4) I know some people whom you might find (to be) professional. * (adjective “professional” which refers to the object “some people”; I do not know what to call the adjective “professional” ).
!!! I do not even know whether I have used the relative clauses properly .
However, my biggest doubt is related to those structures I wrote in my first post, i.e. those structures I have never read being classified as “linking verbs”.
-I am seen as a good person. --- I would say that the noun phrase “a good person”  is a subject complement (?), and it  refers to the subject “I”, but I have never found the structure “be seen as + adjective (or noun or noun phrase)” used as a linking verb; I do not even know what these structures are called.
I thought that “I am seen as a good person” was similar to “I am a good person” in which (the noun phrase “a good person” is  a subject complement which refers to the subject “I” and the Present Simple of the verb “to be” links the subject complement to the subject).
That’s why I thought that the linking verb “to be” was used implicitly:
-I am seen as (being) a good person.
However, I was told that I cannot use “being” here because that sentence would be like saying:
-   I am being a good person NOT  I am a good person.

In the following sentences I would say that “a good person” is used as an object complement (?)
1) I see myself as a good person. (noun phrase “a good person”= object complement (?) which refers to the object “myself”, even though here the subject “I” and the object “myself” both refer to the same person. However, I would say that "a good person" refers to "myself" not to "I" because of example 2 ) 
2) I see him as a good person. (noun phrase “a good person”= object complement (?) which refers to the object “him”.)


I hope that in my examples I have used the right grammar even though I cannot explain the rules underlying those structures.  :-\ 
                         
« Last Edit: July 13, 2014, 10:30:55 AM by GoT »

Offline Daniel

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Re: Some English structures
« Reply #3 on: July 14, 2014, 05:30:47 AM »
Again, the overall outline appears fine. But "so what?"
Without a theory, I'm not sure what you hope to show, or how we can tell you if you are correct.

There are some questionable parts of your explanation:
1. "Refers to" is being used in a way that is unusual within linguistics, as I said above. Adjectives usually do not refer to things. Instead, we would say that they modify those things. In "big house", "big" modifies "house".
2. Locality: usually linguistic analysis involves looking at local (nearby) structure, rather than analyzing a sentence as a whole. How does "big" in "the house is big" actually all fit together? You would create compositional rules (structural rules, step by step) to explain how it all goes together. You'd end up with something like a theory of formal semantics (look that up if you'd like).

What your posts basically do is just outline meanings. That's fine, and they seem generally correct. But they don't go beyond that to explain much. So is this a question about learning English, or is it a question about linguistics? It's fine if you're just starting with linguistics, but in order to answer your questions we'll need to be working from (generally) the same perspective.

Quote
I hope that in my examples I have used the right grammar even though I cannot explain the rules underlying those structures.
There are no "rules" outside of a theory. So first you need a theory (even a partial, working theory), then you can start looking for rules within it. Otherwise you're just arbitrarily assigning (essentially meaningless) labels.
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Offline GoT

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Re: Some English structures
« Reply #4 on: July 14, 2014, 09:43:44 AM »
Could those sentences be analyzed in terms of "Locality" and "Transformational grammar", for example?

Offline Daniel

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Re: Some English structures
« Reply #5 on: July 14, 2014, 04:48:43 PM »
Yes. That is the kind of data those theories are designed for.
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Offline GoT

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Re: Some English structures
« Reply #6 on: July 14, 2014, 07:12:30 PM »
Could "Psych-movement" also work in those sentences?

Offline Daniel

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Re: Some English structures
« Reply #7 on: July 14, 2014, 09:54:56 PM »
http://www.glottopedia.org/index.php/Psych-movement

Doesn't seem like that would cover this. That's a specific term for a specific kind of construction. Something like that might explain this.... but a better explanation would be something involving compositional semantics.
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