that big house & big that house

[mallu]

English doesn't allow changing the order of demonstratives and adjectives in a Noun Phrase(D.P).But many Indic languages allow that.
For example it is ungrammatical to say "big that house",But   the equivalent sentences in Dravidian Languages(I persume,many other indic languages too)allow such construction
see the example below
*aa  valiya    veedu  & valiya   aa     veedu 
 That  big       house    big      That    house

Is there any cross-linguistically valid reason for that?
 

[Daniel]

In English, there are clear distributional differences between demonstratives and adjectives. For example, demonstratives cannot co-occur with articles: *A that house / *The that house.

As a first hypothesis, is it possible that demonstratives simply are adjectives in Indic languages? The distinction that exists in English may not exist.

[mallu]

As a first hypothesis, is it possible that demonstratives simply are adjectives in Indic languages? The distinction that exists in English may not exist.

The only supportive evidence ,I can think of, for such a hypothesis is this distributional.Circular reasoning?

[Daniel]

Right. The fact that there is no distinction suggests that there is no distinction

But you should look at other constructions to see if there are other reasons. Think of examples in English where demonstratives and adjectives differ. For example:

The book is yellow.
??The book is that.

My yellow book.
*My that book.

Any yellow book.
*Any that book.

That yellow book.
*Yellow that book.

The yellow and green book.
*[The] that and yellow book.


Overall, does it seem like the difference is syntactic? Or is it just semantics?

[mallu]

The book is yellow.
??The book is that

The second sentence is ungrammatical In Dravidians too

My yellow book.
*My that book

The Dravidian equivalent of the second one is grammatical

Any yellow book.
*Any that book

Grammaticalty is similar to the English pair

That yellow book.
*Yellow that book.

The  second one is grammatical in Dravidian .

The yellow and green book.
*[The] that and yellow book.

There is no definite article in Dravidians so this is not a valid one Dravidian Languages.


Overall, does it seem like the difference is syntactic? Or is it just semantics?
[/quote]
Not sure , but I think both plays role in it

[Daniel]

For the coordination test, you can ignore the definite article. Can you coordinate a demonstrative and adjective?

[mallu]

For the coordination test, you can ignore the definite article. Can you coordinate a demonstrative and adjective?

No,Neither can be adjectves coordinated.In order to coordinate they should be first nominalised.Would it be because the adjectves in Dravidian Languages are like determinatives in English ?

[Daniel]

I don't see any clear evidence that this is syntactic rather than semantic.

That yellow book.
    *Yellow that book.

The  second one is ungrammatical in Dravidian too.

Isn't that what you said in the title of this topic?
Or maybe "yellow" behaves differently-- so use "big" if you want.

[mallu]

I don't see any clear evidence that this is syntactic rather than semantic.

That yellow book.
    *Yellow that book.

The  second one is ungrammatical in Dravidian too.

Isn't that what you said in the title of this topic?
Or maybe "yellow" behaves differently-- so use "big" if you want.

I don't see any clear evidence that this is syntactic rather than semantic.

That yellow book.
    *Yellow that book.

The  second one is ungrammatical in Dravidian too.

Isn't that what you said in the title of this topic?
Or maybe "yellow" behaves differently-- so use "big" if you want.

Oh I made a mistake there.See I have edited the orginal post
"Yellow that book "is grammatical in Dravidian.
More over Neither adjectives nor demonstrative can be coordinated.I believe the difference is syntactical

[Daniel]

Hmm. I'm not sure because the data is not entirely conclusive. Try to think of more tests that are not semantic and clearly only syntactic.