Author Topic: The language of old Europe  (Read 309453 times)

Offline freknu

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Re: The language of old Europe
« Reply #135 on: February 13, 2014, 01:09:57 AM »
orthoaesthetics

Now that's an orthoaesthetically pleasing vowel cluster.

I firmly believe that there is discrimation against words like archaeology and palaeoanthropology. This needs to end.

:P

Offline MalFet

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Re: The language of old Europe
« Reply #136 on: February 13, 2014, 01:52:03 AM »
"Clustering" is pretty well documented as a phenomenon. The word-initial gl- node is probably the most widely described in English: glisten, glimmer, glint, gleam, etc.

Jespersen famously studied all this years and years ago. I'm away from my library at the moment, but he's often quoted as saying something along the lines of "Sound symbolism makes some words more likely to survive than others."

The following is a short description of a similar phenomenon in Swedish: Phonesthemes in Swedish.

"Phonesthemes" is not a word I'm familiar with, but I would guess it has something to do with thematic distribution of phones or something?

Bingo. I've never really understood this to be an issue of aesthetics, per se, so I tend not to use this word much personally, but it's probably the most widely used term in the literature.

These associative intuitions are widespread, and very often they're influenced by the sound patterns of nearby languages. English is particularly full of etymological doublets thanks to its German+French ancestry, and this creates a ripe source material for exactly this process. Think "prohibited" versus "forbidden", for example. I don't imagine there are many English stories with beautiful maidens named Gruklok either, for that matter.

Offline Daniel

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Re: The language of old Europe
« Reply #137 on: February 13, 2014, 03:32:09 AM »
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I don't imagine there are many English stories with beautiful maidens named Gruklok either, for that matter.
:D
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Offline dublin

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Re: The language of old Europe
« Reply #138 on: February 13, 2014, 08:30:16 AM »
Thanks for all your suggestions how to find the words that contain N. As you have seen from the entrance exit example, the problem is how to find words that relate to boundary, and how to relate them to the original words from which they derived. I don't believe that there is a program that can do "give me all root words from which all English words that relate to boundary come from".  I think this is not as easy as running a query.

MalFet

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So, in other words, all this is an experiment you'd like to do someday but haven't yet done? That's fine. I think people are confused because you appear to be presenting *findings*, when in reality what you're presenting is a project proposal.

I am presenting theory based on my initial findings. This is how things work, right? I looked at experimental data, i found the correlation, i am proposing explanation, and counter explanation. I am continuing with investigation to prove that counter explanation is wrong. You can, if you want try to prove that it isn't.


djr33

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"Shine" is just as good as "glimmer", but "gl" sounds right there, by chance.

MalFet

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Bingo. I've never really understood this to be an issue of aesthetics, per se, so I tend not to use this word much personally, but it's probably the most widely used term in the literature.

What you call sounds right and aesthetics, is the actual underlying meaning the sounds carry. That meaning comes from natural sounds and contexts in which those natural sounds were first observed.

Children learn to speak from context. If i bring a bottle and say bottle every time, when baby wants to say bottle it will not say snack, or lunch, it will say b....In exactly the same way, our ancestors associated sounds with context. Snake (Z(S)mija in Serbian) slithering by makes ssssssssss sound. This sound gets associated with snake and stored in our memory. When a man hears the same sound, the picture of snake pops out of our memory. It is survival mechanism. So if our ancestors wanted to give a name to this animal whose picture they see in their mind every time they hear sssssssssss what do you think, which sound would they use to name it? What would be the easiest way for our ancestors to quickly warn someone that there is a snake? If sound that snake makes ssssssssss triggers picture or idea of snake to pop into our minds, wouldn't it be logical that our ancestor would use the same sound to trigger, transmit, invoke the same reaction in the other human?

So I don't believe that these sounds are random, because this is not how language development works in kids today. Why would it have been any different in the past?

Sounds are just part of the context, meaning matrix, which is stored together and invoked together. Sounds without the context are meaningless. This is why we don't "recognize" the sounds we hear for the first time. They are meaningless to us. We could wander what they are, we might come up with contexts containing similar sounds. But once someone points them out, and links them to a proper context, all of a sudden we can "recognize" them, meaning the picture or an idea or a feeling pops up in our mind every time we hear the sound.
This association between sound and meaning matrix is eventually hardwired into our bodies through epigenetics, and propagated to our descendants. This epigenetic information hugely affects our ability to hear, think and speak, meaning to reproduce what we heard in right context.
And then many generations later, we have a situation when to us words from our language or closely related languages, doesn't matter if we understand them or not, sound "normal" while for instance sub Saharan African languages or Chinese, or Irish sound "weird". If you ask a Chinese person they would tell you the same in reverse.
« Last Edit: February 13, 2014, 08:37:22 AM by dublin »
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Offline Daniel

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Re: The language of old Europe
« Reply #139 on: February 13, 2014, 10:54:23 AM »
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Sounds are just part of the context, meaning matrix, which is stored together and invoked together. Sounds without the context are meaningless. This is why we don't "recognize" the sounds we hear for the first time. They are meaningless to us. We could wander what they are, we might come up with contexts containing similar sounds. But once someone points them out, and links them to a proper context, all of a sudden we can "recognize" them, meaning the picture or an idea or a feeling pops up in our mind every time we hear the sound.
This association between sound and meaning matrix is eventually hardwired into our bodies through epigenetics, and propagated to our descendants. This epigenetic information hugely affects our ability to hear, think and speak, meaning to reproduce what we heard in right context.
And then many generations later, we have a situation when to us words from our language or closely related languages, doesn't matter if we understand them or not, sound "normal" while for instance sub Saharan African languages or Chinese, or Irish sound "weird". If you ask a Chinese person they would tell you the same in reverse.
Do you have any evidence whatsoever? Why would any of that be true?
Plus, even if so, then what does it mean to "mean" something if it is dependent on context?
So N means boundary sometimes, and other times it doesn't, depending on context? Can't that be said of basically anything?
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Offline dublin

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Re: The language of old Europe
« Reply #140 on: February 13, 2014, 01:07:36 PM »
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Do you have any evidence whatsoever? Why would any of that be true?

Read about epigenetics and how life experience affects our genes which then affect our descendants and particularly their language skills.
Read about theory of communication and complex integrated data structures and data retrieval algorithms.
Read about how kids learn. Read how animals learn.

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Plus, even if so, then what does it mean to "mean" something if it is dependent on context?

Sounds have no meaning by themselves. But attached to context they acquire meaning which then gets propagated through related contexts.

N - involuntary sound produced by someone who negates, refuses, defends, protects, creates a boundary. This sound becomes associated with these contexts. When you hear someone saying the sound nnnnnnnnn i am talking about, you associate it with this kind of contexts. If you want to invoke one of the above contexts in others, you can use sound N to do it. This is where words "no, ne" come from. Then when additional contexts are made which are in meaning related to the above initial context, the sound N is most likely to be propagated through these contexts. Sound acquires its meaning from the context but by that association it becomes part of the context. Contexts is all information describing a situation: visual, audio, olfactory, emotional...It is all stored together. What this means effectively is that contexts are the the main building blocks of complex languages, not sounds alone.

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So N means boundary sometimes, and other times it doesn't, depending on context?

In the original primitive family language, where the original context was created in which N was associated with boundary, negation, will preserve this context as the building block for related contexts. In other family languages it might be associated with something else. It is possible that the same sound can be associated with multiple meanings in the same language. But this is not random, and I believe that in that case you can trace the meaning back to the original context, which is associated with some natural sound.
« Last Edit: February 13, 2014, 01:13:39 PM by dublin »
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Offline jkpate

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Re: The language of old Europe
« Reply #141 on: February 13, 2014, 03:15:03 PM »
Thanks for all your suggestions how to find the words that contain N. As you have seen from the entrance exit example, the problem is how to find words that relate to boundary, and how to relate them to the original words from which they derived. I don't believe that there is a program that can do "give me all root words from which all English words that relate to boundary come from".  I think this is not as easy as running a query.

Why not use Wordnet like I suggested? That's a graph of words in English that encodes various relationships between the meanings of words, and would make assembling the list as easy as running a query. And, once you have the infrastructure in place, there are Wordnets for other languages that you could move to.

MalFet

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So, in other words, all this is an experiment you'd like to do someday but haven't yet done? That's fine. I think people are confused because you appear to be presenting *findings*, when in reality what you're presenting is a project proposal.

I am presenting theory based on my initial findings. This is how things work, right? I looked at experimental data, i found the correlation, i am proposing explanation, and counter explanation. I am continuing with investigation to prove that counter explanation is wrong. You can, if you want try to prove that it isn't.

You have not looked at experimental data (or if you have, I just missed it: this is one advantage of writing a concise abstract!). You have looked at a bunch of anecdotes and written some creative fiction about how maybe early language got started. As the saying goes, "the plural of anecdote is not data." Data needs to be representative of the phenonemon you're looking at, and anecdotes are not.
All models are wrong, but some are useful - George E P Box

Offline Daniel

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Re: The language of old Europe
« Reply #142 on: February 13, 2014, 05:31:34 PM »
Haha, great saying. I hadn't heard that before. I'm sure I'll repeat it now though.

As for the content, I'll leave it at that. Still nothing convincing, a lot of disassociated thoughts, scattered sampling method and no clear set of data. Looking forward to the abstract.
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Offline MalFet

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Re: The language of old Europe
« Reply #143 on: February 13, 2014, 09:58:46 PM »
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So, in other words, all this is an experiment you'd like to do someday but haven't yet done? That's fine. I think people are confused because you appear to be presenting *findings*, when in reality what you're presenting is a project proposal.

I am presenting theory based on my initial findings. This is how things work, right? I looked at experimental data, i found the correlation, i am proposing explanation, and counter explanation. I am continuing with investigation to prove that counter explanation is wrong. You can, if you want try to prove that it isn't.

But that's the rub. These *aren't* initial findings. You haven't done the analysis necessary to call them initial findings. These are an amalgam of correlations you've noticed that may or may not be statistically significant.

In other words, they're a hunch. There's nothing wrong with hunches. Hunches have been the first step in many great discoveries. But, it is no exaggeration to say that the last century of historical typology has been dedicated to demonstrating why correlation mining is scientifically invalid.

Offline dublin

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Re: The language of old Europe
« Reply #144 on: February 14, 2014, 05:00:13 AM »
MalFet

First i would like to thank you for joining in. The atmosphere is a lot nicer and less outright dismissive now. Now we are talking.

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"Clustering" is pretty well documented as a phenomenon. The word-initial gl- node is probably the most widely described in English: glisten, glimmer, glint, gleam, etc.

This is not what i mean by clusters. I mean the clusters which arise from similar contexts. Like this:

Sun, blazing, shining, summer, sweating, splashing, swimming, sweltering, sultry, scorched, sizzling, snake, grass, flowers, soil, insects, bees,  cicadas, crickets, spiders, chirping, buzzing, birds singing, forest,  forest fires, leaves, breezy, rustling, shushing, shimmering...

All describing summer, all have s in them. S the first letter of the word for sun. Which brings summer, and all the above things. But s is also related to closeness which is connected with heat.

Or consider this cluster:

Irish word "gar" meaning close to something or someone. This word also means us, people close together. This word is a root of the word "garadh" which means worm, from people huddling close together for warmth. Also "grian", meaning sun in Irish, gives off heat.

So originally people stayed worm by exposing themselves to the sun or by huddling together. Then later they started using fire. The root gar, gr associated originally with heat by huddling, has been preserved in all the words which are related to heat:

Serbian:

grupa - group, people close together
greje, grije - emits heat.
sunce greje, grije - sun heats us up
sunce sine, sija - sun shines
grejati, grijati - to heat
grijan - heated, warm
ogrev - firewood
gori - burns
g(a)rana - branch, what burns
nagariti - put branches into the fire, feed the fire
gar - hot ashes, soot
garav - covered in soot, black
zgariste -  something burned down
ugarci - smoldering branches
zgura - slag, what is left after something is melted with heat. zgura "se gura" is pushed to the side. Serbian expression "nije zgoreg" means it is not for throwing away. 


Irish:

gor - warmth
gorach - heat up
goradh - incubation, keeping worm
gorai - place where chicks come out of eggs
gorim - warm
grios - hot ashes, burning coal, branches, but also burning and itching rash
garrail - dirty
griosach - glowing
griosagh - fire
grios(c) - broil, grill
grian - sun
garr - wooden pulp
crann (originally probably gran) meaning tree is made from garr. When crann (tree) is put into griosagh (fire) it gives us gorim (heat) and turns to grios (hot ashes) which you can use to grios(c) (cook).

For Irish grian we find this:

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From Old Irish grían, from Proto-Indo-European *ghreinā, from Proto-Indo-European *gher- (“to shine, glow; grey”).

http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/grian

Do you see how cluster of audio - visual - tactile - olfactory contexts develops from the original context meaning close together? This close together contexts also gave us another cluster which contains words like gar - spear, gard - protect, gard - protected place, fortified place...But i will leave this for another day.

If you don't know the above then you come up with this etymology for word group:

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From French groupe (“cluster, group”), from Italian gruppo groppo (“a knot, heap, group, bag (of money)”), itself derived from Vulgar Latin *kruppo, from Proto-Germanic *kruppaz (“lump, round mass, body, crop”), from Proto-Indo-European *grewb- (“to crumple, bend, crawl”). Cognate with German Kropf (“crop, craw, bunch”), Old English cropp, croppa (“cluster, bunch, sprout, flower, berry, ear of corn, crop”), Dutch krop (“craw”), Old Norse kroppr (“hump, bunch”). More at crop, croup.

http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/group


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But that's the rub. These *aren't* initial findings. You haven't done the analysis necessary to call them initial findings. These are an amalgam of correlations you've noticed that may or may not be statistically significant.

The above Serbian Irish cluster for heat is what i mean by clusters of contexts. You get them by analyzing context related data. I did a lot of that. 

So when you say i did not do enough analysis, you guys need to understand that i didn't wake up one day with a hangover and decided to come here and start bothering you with my ideas. I have been looking over data for years analyzing it and comparing it. I did tell you where you can find a lot of this data, and i have presented a lot of additional data here as well. I did not use graphs and tables i admit that.

When i say data i mean words, languages, cultures, histories. These are all linked. You can't successfully understand language if you don't understand the reality which it describes. These things are interlinked. This is why i believe that while statistics is a great tool to get rough idea about distribution of something, it can be completely misleading as well. Statistics is as good as the data and the data and the question you asked. Also statistics will not tell you why and how are things distributed the way they are now. To find that out you need to look at history.
Statistics will not tell you the meaning of the language. You need to know the culture, the way of life, the way of thinking.

You need to get the poetry of the language.

Languages describe realities. Words are not random collections of sounds assembled by chance. Human minds don't operate like that. You can not reduce people to numbers and expect to understand people. You can not reduce language to numbers and expect to understand language. You can statistically examine the language all you want, but you will never understand why word stop means stop, or why word go mans go. And because you can not see that from statistics, and if statistics is the only tool you use, you will naturally come to conclusion that it is all random. But it isn't. Even genetics in realizing that genetic evolution is not random, it is governed by the epigenetic changes, which are governed by life experiences. Our life experiences make us who we are, and make our language what it is.

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Neo-Darwinism relies on mutation and selection, but selection of what? Epigenetics is confusing the target of selection, raising fears of neo-Lamarckism.

Elizabeth Pennisi in Science Magazine reports that ongoing studies of epigenetic inheritance at the University of Groningen in the Netherlands have evolutionists worried. Frank Johannes and his team have apparently shown that methylation marks on the DNA of plants can alter the phenotype in heritable ways that remain stable up to at least eight generations.
For some evolutionary biologists, just hearing the term epigenetics raises hackles. They balk at suggestions that something other than changes in DNAsequences -- such as the chemical addition of methyl groups to DNA or other so-called epigenetic modifications -- has a role in evolution. All of which guaranteesthat a provocative study presented at an evolutionary biology meeting here last month will get close scrutiny. It found that heritable changes in plant flowering time and other traits were the result of epigenetics alone, unaided by any sequence changes. (Emphasis added.)
Her title, "Evolution Heresy? Epigenetics Underlies Heritable Plant Traits," reflects the religious wars these findings threaten to ignite. The concern is that the environment -- not chance mutations -- can cause adaptive epigenetic changes directly. If a plant or animal acquires characteristics during its lifetime that are heritable, the specter of long-dead Lamarckism rises once again to haunt evolutionary biology.
But the experiment doesn't address the most controversial aspect of epigenetics and evolution -- whether an environmental stress can alter an organism's epigenetic markings and lead to a permanent trait change that's acted upon by natural selection -- a notion that, to some, sounds suspiciously like Lamarckism.
So it's not just a matter of displacing natural selection to act on epigenetic marks instead of, or in addition to, genetic mutations. The issue is the possibility of a built-in adaptability that allows organisms to respond to environmental changes. It calls into question whether variation (mutation) is unguided. That's an entrenched paradigm that will be hard to change:
"A lot more hard evidence is necessary before one can claim that epigenetics plays a very important role in evolution," says ecological geneticist Koen Verhoeven at the Netherlands Institute of Ecology in Wageningen. And, Richards adds, "people are really stubborn about accepting that that's possible."

You'd hope that people who are biologists would not be "stubborn," but rather would seek to follow the evidence where it leads.


What does all this new data mean? It's too early to say. If experiments continue to support epigenetic inheritance, additional research questions will arise. Do the epigenetic marks ever become encoded in the DNA sequence, or are they temporary? Are epigenetic marks subject to natural selection? What directs the methylation activity? It might prove to be a built-in adaptability that provides robustness in a changing world. If so, it would require higher orders of complex specified information than the genetic code, because it suggests foresight to handle contingencies.
However it turns out, the issue about epigenetic inheritance in evolution is sure to be interesting. What's also interesting is watching how the neo-Darwinian old guard, biology's ancien régime, responds to heresy in the ranks.

You would hope that people who are scientists of any kind would "not be "stubborn," but rather would seek to follow the evidence where it leads."
« Last Edit: February 14, 2014, 05:06:33 AM by dublin »
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Offline MalFet

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Re: The language of old Europe
« Reply #145 on: February 14, 2014, 07:21:43 AM »
So when you say i did not do enough analysis, you guys need to understand that i didn't wake up one day with a hangover and decided to come here and start bothering you with my ideas. I have been looking over data for years analyzing it and comparing it. I did tell you where you can find a lot of this data, and i have presented a lot of additional data here as well. I did not use graphs and tables i admit that.

Indeed, I'm sure that you have been looking over this data for years. Meanwhile, thousands of linguists have spent the last century and a half explaining why "looking over data for years" isn't good enough. The kinds of arguments you're trying to make land squarely in some very, very well established statistical analytic territory. Until you ground your methodology in something more rigorous, there's not much more I can say, unfortunately.

Offline dublin

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Re: The language of old Europe
« Reply #146 on: February 14, 2014, 08:31:27 AM »
MalFet

I am pretty good at understanding people, but i fail to understand what exactly do you mean.

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These *aren't* initial findings. You haven't done the analysis necessary to call them initial findings. These are an amalgam of correlations you've noticed that may or may not be statistically significant.

What do you think is statistical chance for the close - heat - sun - fire pattern to arise as a random pile up of letters in two distant European languages like Serbian and Irish. I am asking you for your personal opinion?

And how can you explain that deliberate action like trying to convey meaning to someone, will result in random babble of sounds devoid of any premeditated meaning. I think sometimes that i might be talking to wrong people. I was hoping to talk to linguists, and i am talking to statisticians.

How can you statistically explain why this is the symbol for one "|"? Why this is the symbol for two "||"? Why do we use 0 as a symbol for ten ||||||||||?

Or how can you understand and explain this, using statistics?

1 = one
2 = two
12 = twelve

I can understand it using my, from your point of view useless, "looking over data" and comparing the language with how people think and how people live. Can you please explain what statistical or any other method that you regard as scientific, can explain any of the above two linguistics problems.

I would like to continue talking to you, but for that i need to know that we are using the same language.

« Last Edit: February 14, 2014, 08:40:15 AM by dublin »
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Offline Daniel

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Re: The language of old Europe
« Reply #147 on: February 14, 2014, 10:07:55 AM »
Bottom line: your efforts are irrelevant because your arguments are not convincing and because you don't have any statistically reliable arguments to back them up. Harsh, but true. We've all said it to you in various ways. We're not opposed to reading a convincing argument from you, but for that to happen you'll need to provide one.

Just one point for now:
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Sun, blazing, shining, summer, sweating, splashing, swimming, sweltering, sultry, scorched, sizzling, snake, grass, flowers, soil, insects, bees,  cicadas, crickets, spiders, chirping, buzzing, birds singing, forest,  forest fires, leaves, breezy, rustling, shushing, shimmering...

All describing summer, all have s in them. S the first letter of the word for sun. Which brings summer, and all the above things. But s is also related to closeness which is connected with heat.
Do you truly not see the sampling bias here? You've listed a lot of words that have S and have to do with summer. Great. But what about "hot", "heat", "play", "travel", "beach", "drought", "walk", "warm", and hundreds of other words also associated with summer?

You're just making lists of words and looking for correlation without balancing anything. You can literally choose any letter you'd like and any concept you'd like and create a list of words that go together. But that means there's no conclusion to be drawn-- you can do it for any letter/concept combination!



Anyway, try writing an abstract. It will clarify your position and we can give you some feedback on what would be required to support it. I'm not interested in going back and forth with the really long posts any more.
« Last Edit: February 14, 2014, 10:50:01 AM by djr33 »
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Offline dublin

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Re: The language of old Europe
« Reply #148 on: February 14, 2014, 10:46:11 AM »
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"hot", "head", "play", "travel", "beach", "drought", "walk", "warm"

Head, play, travel, beach, walk are not related to summer at all. I am talking about time before holidays....
 
Warm, hot are not related to summer only but are related to heat.

if we look at the list i gave:

Sun, blazing, shining, summer, sweating, splashing, swimming, sweltering, sultry, scorched, sizzling, snake, grass, flowers, soil, insects, bees,  cicadas, crickets, spiders, chirping, buzzing, birds singing, forest,  forest fires, leaves, breezy, rustling, shushing, shimmering...

What i am trying to show you is that these words contain the sound of summer. Have you been out in summer in Europe? This is just an example of a cluster by context.
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Offline Daniel

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Re: The language of old Europe
« Reply #149 on: February 14, 2014, 10:52:12 AM »
"Head" was a typo. I meant heat. Fixed.

Really? Snake has more to do with summer than heat or travel?

Whatever. Make up whatever you'd like, if you're content with others not understanding or believing you.
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