Linguist Forum
General Linguistics => Linguist's Lounge => Outside of the box => Topic started by: waive15 on August 31, 2021, 04:39:33 AM
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Russian orthography
/pravopisánije (connecting/linking -o-)/
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%D0%BF%D1%80%D0%B0%D0%B2%D0%BE%D0%BF%D0%B8%D1%81%D0%B0%D0%BD%D0%B8%D0%B5
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https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian_orthography
...
Phonetic principle, 4th pargraph:
" (1.) borrowed words are usually spelled as transliterations, often ignoring actual pronunciation until they become more fully nativized. This is why double consonants are usually retained from original spelling when their pronunciation is not normally geminated. (2.) In addition, unpalatalized consonants are usually followed by ⟨е⟩ rather than ⟨э⟩ (e.g. кафе [kɐˈfɛ],'café'); 19th-century linguists, such as Yakov Karlovich Grot, considered unpalatalized pronunciation of consonants before /e/ to be foreign to Russian, though this has now become the standard for many loanwords."
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(0.)
Too many foreign words. It resembles the story of colonel [ˈkɜrnl].
https://www.etymonline.com/search?q=colonel
"... English spelling was modified 1580s in learned writing to conform with the Italian form (via translations of Italian military manuals), ..."
https://www.thefreedictionary.com/learned
learned [ˈlɜːnɪd]
adj.
1. having great knowledge or erudition
2. involving or characterized by scholarship
3. (Law) (prenominal) a title applied in referring to a member of the legal profession, esp to a barrister: my learned friend.
A Fish Called Wanda (1988)
(1.)
Once upon a time a son asked 100 dollars from his father . The father sent his son 10 dollars with a note: "Dear son, let me remind you that one writes ten with one zero."
"Russian" word Russian word
грамматика граматика
группa групa
доллар долар
коммерсант комерсант
коммуникация комуникация
профессия професия
агрессия агресия
коллега колега
оппонент опонент
мисс мис
миссис мисиз
Джонни Депп Джони Деп
Ванесса Паради Ванеса Паради
...
(2.)
-->
direction of reading/writing (in English, Russian, ...)
e (Russian letter)
--> (direction of the letter)
э (Russian letter)
<-- (direction of the letter)
~Russian word ~Russian word
/the writing is more smooth
/the Russian word with e in that case is more close to
/the English one if one is talking about transliteration
/at times е (and и?) deviate from their "soft" behaviour
эксперт експерт
экономика економика
экология екология
...
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Transliteration with e in Russian words seems more natural: economics - економикс; ... /е = э (here е is hard)/.
Even икономика (и = hard и) could be permissible.
In English there was transliteration too: Latin ae --> English e; ...
Let natural selection do its work (survival of the fittest word forms; no centralised language reforms).
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hard - soft
а - я
э - е
ы - и
о - ё
у - ю
/it seems, at times, е (and и?) deviate from their "soft" behaviour/
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It is always fun to know how foreigners treat other languages.
> This is why double consonants are usually retained from original spelling when their
> pronunciation is not normally geminated.
Gemination in the words you have provided below depends upon the pace of speech and carefulness of a speaker. For example, Russians geminate l in dollar in careful pronunciation even if natives never do it.
>In addition, unpalatalized consonants are usually followed by ⟨е⟩ rather than ⟨э⟩
> (e.g. кафе [kɐˈfɛ],'café'); 19th-century linguists, such as Yakov Karlovich Grot,
> considered unpalatalized pronunciation of consonants before /e/ to be foreign to
> Russian, though this has now become the standard for many loanwords.
I am not sure I understand the idea of the quoted excerpt completely but Russian do pronounce кафЭ and not кафЕ. In other words, it is always hard F in this very word. This is all the difference in this very word. The stressed vowel sound is absolutely the same (probably the tongue position will be a little bit higher if you try to pronounce it as кафЕ but there will not be any (much) difference).
What you probably might mean is the difference in pronunciation of such words as спортсмен (sportsman), академия (academy) and so like. Though the total majority of Russians pronounce them with Е – спортсмЕн, акадЕмия – linguists distinguish the academic pronunciation (академическое произношение) of such words -- спортсмЭн, акадЭмия. Again it is all about softness of the preceding consonant only, vowel is the same. As the example, you may consider the early Glukoza’s hit called Nevesta (fiancee) – it was clear спортсмЭн. I believe she has got rid of the accent nowadays.
The idea of “direction” sounds too farfetched to me. If you say Эксперт as Експерт (Е is diphthong in this very case) it will sound very ironically (the person is not an idiot but does not know the subject he is talking about indeed). And эконОмика and эколОгия in quick or careless speech will start with the perfect English long E sound – икономика, икология -- rather than Russian Е. Starting them with Russian E will make these very words sound very hypertrophied and I will not take a risk to explain what it would mean in general – you need the context to guess what your conversant really mean or try to mean.
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-->
direction of reading in English, Russian, ...
-->
direction of the letter
<--
direction of the letter
-I-
symmetrical letter
===
A, B, C, D, E, F, G, H, I, J, K, L, M, N, O, P, Q, R, S, T, U, V, W, X, Y, Z (26 letters)
a, b, c, d, e, f, g, h, i, j, k, l, m, n, o, p, q, r, s, t, u, v, w, x, y, z
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-->
B, C, D, E, F, G, K, L, N(?), P, Q, R, S(?), Z(?)
b, c, e, f, h, k, m, n, p, r, s(?), t, u(?), z(?)
---
<--
J
a, d, g, j, q, y
---
-I-
A, H, I, M, O, T, U, V, W, X, Y
i, l, o, v, w, x
===
А, Б, В, Г, Д, Е, Ё, Ж, З, И, Й, К, Л, М, Н, О, П, Р, С, Т, У, Ф, Х, Ц, Ч, Ш, Щ, Ъ, Ы, Ь, Э, Ю, Я (33 letters)
а, б, в, г, д, е, ё, ж, з, и, й, к, л, м, н, о, п, р, с, т, у, ф, х, ц, ч, ш, щ, ъ, ы, ь, э, ю, я
---
-->
Б, В, Г, Е, Ё, И(?), Й(?), К, Р, С, Ц, Щ, Ы, Ь, Ю
б, в, г, е, ё, и(?), й(?), к, р, с, ц, щ, ы, ь, ю
---
<--
Д, З, Л, У, Ч, Ъ, Э, Я
а, д, з, л, у, ч, ъ, э, я
---
-I-
А, Ж, М, Н, О, П, Т, Ф, Х, Ш
ж, м, н, о, п, т, ф, х, ш
===
The idea, somewhere on the internet, is that if an alphabet has more --> and -I- letters then reading is easier.
/more comfortable/
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-en2
https://affixes.org/alpha/e/-en2.html
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-en3
https://affixes.org/alpha/e/-en3.html
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The same is in Russian.
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http://russianlearn.com/grammar/category/short_adjectives
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a stands for a vowel.
1. _-an (a word ends in -an)
2. _-an + en --> _-anen
3. _-anen + a --> _-anna
Word forms in 2. are missing in Russian.
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> The same is in Russian.
> - - -
> http://russianlearn.com/grammar/category/short_adjectives
> - - -
> a stands for a vowel.
> 1. _-an (a word ends in -an)
> 2. _-an + en --> _-anen
> 3. _-anen + a --> _-anna
>
> Word forms in 2. are missing in Russian.
It was a challenge indeed – I did feel the word forms in 2. are NOT missing in the language indeed but I was unable to think out an absolutely correct example. Absolutely correct means in this very case the following:
1. The word shall be an adjective. However, you have allowed yourself to mix adjectives with participles in the skipped English part.
2. None letter from_-anen shall be a part of the word’s root.
I almost gave up and decided that _-anen is reserved for nouns in Russian but at last, I came up with the solution – both participle and adjective. It is a taboo word.
Participle: этот гвоздь заебенен криво. This nail is hammered in crookedly.
Adjective: ты просто заебенен/охуенен! You are very cool!
Here is the morpheme parsing https://морфема.рус/словарь/заебенить to make sure the _-anen are suffixes.
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Hi, Rock100,
Here is cena:
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/cena
cena /Czech, Latvian, Polish, Serbo-Croatian, Slovak, Slovene/
цена /Bulgarian, Macedonian, Russian, Serbo-Croatian/
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%D1%86%D0%B5%D0%BD%D0%B0#Serbo-Croatian
цена = цен- + -a
цен- + -ен = ценен /short form, masculine/
ценен + -a = ценна /short form, feminine/
+ -о = ценно /short form, neuter/
+ -ы = ценны /short form, plural/
Short form is older. It does not matter which alphabet official Slavic "language"/dialect uses.
official (adj.)
https://www.etymonline.com/word/official#etymonline_v_44786
From a certain point of view German is almost Slavic. Slavic is almost Latin.
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There are two things to say:
1. languages are not taught in a proper way, to say at least.
Language as a behaviour is a matter of politics. That way (that is why) it is taught intentionally.
2. to understand official Russian dialect one simply has to look in/at the other Russian/Slavic languages/dialects (no matter (of) the alphabet).
= = =
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> ценен + -a = ценна /short form, feminine/
Your example does not satisfy the second criterion – the first -ен- is the part of the word’s root so it looks like _-anen but it is not. It is just the suffix -ен- there and the first -ен- is not a suffix but the part of the root <цен>.
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Hi, Rock100,
_an means that the word (any word, morphology does not matter here) ends in
vowel + n.
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1.
цена = цен- (root) + -a
/-en is a part of the root/
2.
revolution = revolvō + -tiō
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/revolutio#Latin
-tio (-on is a part of the suffix)
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/-tio#Latin
_______________________________
r e v o l u t i (-on)
р е в о л ю ц и (-я)
революция = революцион + ен = революционен + (-ый; -ая; -ое; -ые) = революционный; революционная; революционное; революционные
= = =
If there is not an -anen word in a Russian or Slavic dialect/language (old or contemporary) then there must not be an -anna word.
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I. M. Pulkina
A Short Russian Reference Grammar
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1HrylyFtSU4EDdQPakf53hOCjxmXhXQJZ/view?usp=sharing
= = =
For the past 150 years a lot of "nations", "national" languages, "national" histories, ... have been invented.
nation (n.)
https://www.etymonline.com/word/nation#etymonline_v_2309
= = =
JOJOBA
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0WwnB9dmx8E
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> If there is not an -anen word in a Russian or Slavic dialect/language
It was your claim originally. I was just unable to come up with a non-taboo example but I did feel the -anen is pretty valid in Russian. It appears that many –ция–nouns produce adjectives the –anen way (but not all of them).
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Hi, Rock100,
революционен is not a Russian word. It is a word from another language.
https://bg.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%A4%D1%80%D0%B5%D0%BD%D1%81%D0%BA%D0%B8_%D1%80%D0%B5%D0%B2%D0%BE%D0%BB%D1%8E%D1%86%D0%B8%D0%BE%D0%BD%D0%B5%D0%BD_%D0%BA%D0%B0%D0%BB%D0%B5%D0%BD%D0%B4%D0%B0%D1%80
= = =
There are many Russian words with -anna but without -anen. This is not logical.
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The Spelling of Past Passive Participles in Russian
Morton Benson, University of Pennsylvania
Preview
https://www.jstor.org/stable/305639
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> революционен is not a Russian word. It is a word from another language.
I do not think it is a valid argument. It is a loan word but it is so long in the language that it is in the dictionaries and I do not think there is a Russian who has ever thought about it as a foreign word. Moreover, -tion based adjectives are so far the only non-taboo words that produce –anen adjectives I know (with your help). I do not say your point is not valid at all but if you want to consider or leave out loans, dialects, non-existing Russian words that do exist you need to formulate these preconditions in advance.
> There are many Russian words with -anna but without -anen. This is not logical.
I wished you would provide a single (morphologically correct in terms we have discussed above) example – I am totally lost and cannot think out one. OK, let it be any example even if a part of –anen is a part of the root of a word (it will not be that interesting but at least I will learn one).